Now welcome to the program today. I am really excited because I get to talk to one of my personal heroes. He is probably one of the most outspoken and prominent people and fixtures in the Bitcoin crypto world, and that’s heritage of digit by Clint jarred. How are you today, doing?
Fantastic, thank you, thank you for the kind words.
And I actually mean it when I say those things so, so many people, especially with the influencers, in the space that just kind of blow smoke. But I actually really serious. You guys have been doing really cool stuff. Your project’s been around for a while now. So before we dive into some of the nitty-gritty I always like to get a little bit of background. Can you talk a little bit about who you are as a person? And then we’ve talked a little bit about what did you bytes all about?
Yeah, so I’ve been in this space since I first discovered Bitcoin in 2012, before that, I was very lucky and fortunate. My mother was a computer scientist, so she taught me how to build a website and build a computer. By the time I was 10, and so I’ve always had a fascination with computers and computer science, so when I first discovered Bitcoin, in 2012, I was blown away, and I was running out telling everybody. Oh, this is the future, this is the future, this is amazing.
And then of course, people were like, “Oh no, no, it’s upon these “don’t be burning made off stuff like that and I’m like… No, you really need to look into this. And after going through the core source code from 2012 through 2013, I had an idea, I’m like, “Hey I think I could make some improvements to the core protocol, and I think we could make it faster, and I think we could make it a little bit more efficient. And that’s how, digit started on January. 10-2014. I honestly had no idea. It would turn into what it is is I literally launched it from my garage in IDEO it was the middle of the winter so I was mining with gpus and that’s how I was testing the network ’cause there was no insulation in the garage, so he didn’t have to worry about cooling.
And from there, we’ve just continued to innovate. And did your bite has become an amazing grassroots Blockchain community. And so my hats off to all the community members out there who are watching without them. None of this would be possible and I think that’s why we’re all here in the beginning is true. decentralization.
Well, that’s one of the things I like about your project is that your community is absolutely one of the most excited. And what I can see a legitimate communities out there, a lot of projects will talk about their community size. And I can tell you as a project myself, is that I personally believe a lot of the communities sizes around these projects are fake, not 100%, a lot of used to see it a lot more in 2017 before Twitter kinda crack down, but yeah, tons of bots and paid, paid promotion-based stuff like that. 100%.
He is just funny because we’ve been accused of being a paid bottom.
Well, just some people understand you wouldn’t believe. And how many people approach us with offering these services? We will add so many to come up with a whole sheet a whole pitch deck of how many Telegram users, they’ll give you how many Twitter followers they give you all for in prices of in a bit clan and whatever else you and I tell people We found really, as well with our project that a lot of the people that have come into Crypto and a lot of these bound “h0n0 type people on a lot of these people that have these uncle big followings around their projects, just they’re not, they’re not real. It’s all made up.
But then I…
I talked to verge. Recently, the verge crypto project and talked to you. And I can see with these communities that there’s real responses real people asking real questions not, just paid for bots. And I do believe that it matters but I think it’s gonna become a lot more important over the next couple of years is I believe crypto is gonna have to change and grow is that all this nonsense and all the fake volume and all the fake communities and stuff that’s gotta wash away if mass adoption, is gonna happen, you know, 100% and as you’re sitting there talking,
I get those same offers almost on a daily basis, and in fact I have a whole inbox. I should publish some of them, just so people see how ridiculous this space actually kinda is, whether it’s paid social media promotion, paid followers, or even worse. I get offers, probably, at least every two or three days from people saying that they’ll increase volume they’ll make it look like a lot of them are coming from exchanges overseas, but I think a lot of people just aren’t aware of how much hype and just marketing and a fake stuff that’s out there. And it’s really dramatically changed since 2017, you had this whole wave of people that came in, in 2017, and they were drawn to this marketing hype in these projects that they don’t really understand a lot of times are completely centralized and controlled by their maybe just a single person or a handful of people.
The volume thing is really interesting too especially and it seems to be, and I’m not calling it out to be mean, but a lot of these Asian exchanges, the smaller Asian exchanges they’ll say, “Look at how big or exchanges you should come on and pay us 510 BTC to come on to their platform, and we’re like, Okay, but a coin get go says your volumes all fake. Well, no, no, it’s not fake, but then they’ll say, “Oh by the way, if you come on our network and you don’t mean tan, minimum volume, you have to fake your own volume. So which is it? Are your users, real in your value real or are you literally just doing your own market making and was trading on these projects? And it bugs me ’cause I’m an honest guy. I would hate to have low volumes, but I’d rather have low volumes on trading on my project, and have fake trading ’cause I don’t want… ’cause that’s fraud, and I… Yeah, we inherently… Fraud is bad.
Yeah, well, I’m not opposed to calling it out. It is predominantly Chinese, Asian-based, exchanges. I myself, I lived in China for four years, I’m well aware of the way that a lot of the Chinese operate their businesses, and the reality is, is we’re seeing this not just in crypto, but I mean, across the board, there’s a reason this trade war is unfolding, the way it is because they haven’t been playing fair anywhere. The reality is, they do have a different set of values over there and if for instance I created an exchange in 2014 never launched it and the reason we never launched it, is because we wanted to do it properly regulated manner.
And at the time, I actually talked with the guy who underwrote the bonds for paypal and he’s like, “Look man, you’re gonna spend 3 million trying to go and get money transmission licenses. And 47 out of the 50 states plus applying and doing all the Fed stuff.
So the burden of regulation is very overwhelming, in the United States, especially for a start-up and the reality is in Asia, they just don’t have those same rules. The play by… And so if I… Myself, had gone out and operated the same way. And in exchange, starting in 2014, that a lot of these agent exchange is that I would have been in jail years ago and it’s pretty crazy to… So you’ve been pretty outspoken about dealing with exchanges. Most notably, finance, which is this point at the time of this recording, is the biggest exchange in the world right now, at least purportedly what happened… What happened there with you guys and you’re listening with finance, you know it all goes back to 2017. before they even launched in the summer of 2017, we were presenting digit in our international trade and logistics solution called digs at this event called The City Tech for integrity challenge. And at the time, it was probably the most covered follow thing that was happening in crypto, ’cause it was…
I met and so we had a massive amount of attention and what ended up happening is, one day, I started seeing these Tweets about… And you exchange which, you know, it’s pretty common, you see that all the time, especially as long as we’ve been around I think we’ve got digit listed on probably 150 exchanges over the last six years and probably a good 50 of those. have come and gone and are no longer around, you know, it wasn’t abnormal for a new exchange to come in, but was that what was abnormal were the amount of likes and retweets and stuff this thing was going, it was obviously it was both, right?
Well, some of our community members had conversations back and forth, finance put out this tweet, saying, “Hey who we had next about digit at the time we won, and we’re like, cool. Well, next thing you know some of our people start talking to the finance people and they’re like, “Well you need to pay us. And this went back and forth for a few months, and finally were like, “Hey we’re a decentralized project. We didn’t do an ICO. It’s been true grass roots, we fight out don’t have the money to pay and the fact is they won’t even give us an amount. And I posted screen shots of all this in 2018. anybody can go back and look at it. Basically they’re like, “How much do you got?
It’s basically straight up extortion. And then they started spreading rumors about me and other people in the community. Basically, trying to strong arm us into doing a community raised to get a bunch of money, right?
I was just fundamentally opposed to that and it really upset me, and I was getting accused of… Well, first of all, I got accused of being a Chinese spy on WeChat, which made no sense.
I’m like, “I don’t even use WeChat, but anyway, then I started finding out that the scene stories were coming from other projects and other found I… Unfortunately, a lot of these other projects just basically, I guess, to come to it or they did an ICO and they had the money and they paid them, so it just because so many people went along with it, it just exacerbated the problem made it works.
And in my opinion, that behavior of this pay to pull a ICO friendly set this industry back years and then finally in the interest of moving forward. And I’m not a negative person, I like to think I’m a very optimistic positive person but when I continually see this behavior over and over again after we tried to bury the hatchet later this year, they actually approached us right before the finance us watch and I was told I didn’t even agree to take the phone call or the video call. I’m like, “Look if they’re gonna ask or demand for anything, I don’t wanna talk to them if they want a list. Did you buy… And they wanna support to the centralized projects. That’s great, anybody is free to list. I go buy it any time they want, but I get out on the phone call with them, and it wasn’t even 60 seconds into it they’re like, “Well we’ll issue for 300000. and I’m like, “What you gotta be kidding me.
First of all, we don’t even have 300000 for a marketing budget to pay anything we’ve never paid to be on an exchange. And then secondly, they ask us to give ’em 3% of all the Digby circulation.
It just blew me away. The fact that either they were that arrogant or the fact that they were… That naive of how it really decentralized, project works which I think it was the arrogant to be honest. And so, after that, I’m like, Look, the community needs to know this, and if you look at the stuff and the information that they have repeatedly done it’s like, Oh, they’re gonna have a deck. The essential IED exchange, it’s not decentralized.
Oh, they’re gonna take listing fees, and give them a charity. Yeah, a charity that they control.
It’s just shenanigans, after shenanigans, and I’m not, I wanna be clear here, when I talk about doing business in China I don’t think all Chinese people are bad. I have some great friends that are Chinese, I think they’re good people, but the business practices that are basically normal over there, so I think a normal Westerner they just quite don’t understand it but I can tell you after seeing some of the same behaviors in the manufacturing industry in other technology businesses over there outside of crypto it’s just, it’s the way business is done. It’s a very cut-throat doggy, dog fake until you make an environment.
Well, well, my experience has been the same way. And so, I don’t know if you know what we’re doing with us, but we started out as an ERC-20 token and we actually created our own blockchain, and we just did our swap.
So we are fully decentralized, and we never did an ICO so we didn’t have all this ICO money either.
And it’s interesting ’cause I started recently I’ve been talking to exchanges again, and I’m seeing the same nonsense. I had someone… Literally, their reported volume is a billion dollar it’s an Asian exchange and their actual normalized volumes about 3 million of their trade volume.
They asked me for 5 BTC for one pair and 20% of our entire supply. I said I don’t even have access to 2% of our supply.
And it’s like they have a hard time understanding that we don’t control that it was distributed in the community. Owns the coins not us, and I just said, and you point this out, you’re… And I really like coin Geo as far as a tracker. They’re trying to make some real good headway in how they’re displaying the sizes and the normalized volume and they compared to things like what traffic… And it’s funny ’cause I talked to the sales rep, I’m not gonna say which Exchange, but it’s a decent sized exchange. And I said, “Look your web traffic is about a third of what all the other exchanges are that have your stated volume or half or a tent there. It was ridiculous, it was like “Oh they’re just wrong.
Yeah, I like it a… For those who might be more interested in this general fading I think he was one of the former Joint Chiefs of Staff just came out with an amazing book called stellar, he’s a former B52 pilot, and he was the Defense Adat Beijing and he goes into a lot about these kind of tactics not just in technology businesses but other business is basically almost any industry when it comes to trade between the United States and Europe and Western nations in China. Do you see these same sorts of behaviors and deceptions?
And you really can’t trust a lot of the numbers that are coming out of there in any industry, and so that’s really what it boils out to you.
So yeah, it’s not surprising at all. I actually ignore them. We were talking earlier, I should start posting some of these offers that I get from these Asian exchanges. Either paying for volume or paying for a listing or promising X, Y, Z. and it came out even on finance, like there’s several people that are like… Yeah, you gotta pay for your own volume on there. It’s a total hype cycle. Their business model wasn’t treating their business model was basically listing fees, and strong-arming people up front. And hey, people are paying it, and they got away with it.
But you know, I really don’t see them as being a viable…
I’ve seen exchanges come and go like this in this kind of behavior, the fact that they’ve ran from one jurisdiction to another jurisdiction, well, they start out in China move the Hong Kong then sing a poor than Japan, and then now they moved the Alto who knows where they’re operating out of they’re operating in a gray area, they can’t go on look like that forever.
So anyway, like I said, I like to think I’m a positive person, but I also didn’t get into this industry and I guess at this point, I’ve dedicated the better part of my adult life to this technology, and so I can’t just sit idly by and let this technology be hijacked and completely perverted from what it was created for.
But unfortunately, we see that happening and I… That’s the whole reason that I spent the last 16 months, writing this book. Blockchain 2035.You made me to it. I was about to ask you about that on what is Blockchain, 2035 all about?
Well, so I first I lined it in 2015, but over the last, especially since I read digit six years, I’ve been asked questions by thousands of people, I’ve sat down with pretty much every major financial institution I’ve sat down with governments up sat down the Central Banks and there’s a lot of the same questions, so I’m like, “Look if I can put all the information that I know and try and put it in one book.
When it comes to blockchain technology, this is why we created it. I would say 95% of this book is about the future of the internet geo-politics and technology.Only about five percent, actually, about Digi-bite.
We split the book in the four parts, we have the unintended menu. Go back here.
So part one is kind of like the basics, the story of “diabase part two is what we call the philosophy. And the philosopher as part three is the applications a part for the future, so we go over everything from how Blockchain can rebuild the internet from the ground up to how governments are using it and weaning this in geopolitics.
We talk about the history of cryptography and how Block chain didn’t just pop up out of nowhere.
It’s actually the evolution of some of the most brilliant mathematical minds going back to Al entering and Claude Shannon, in 1948.And then we also talk about the future with artificial intelligent in quantum quantum computing and how that’s gonna affect blockchain. So it’s a very dynamic book. I co-authored it with my business partner, Andrew, who’s actually a former intelligence analyst he specialized in counter-terrorism. So we’ve got that perspective in it, too, so it’s a very dynamic book.
So yeah, actually I just got a huge shipment. So if anybody wants to order the hard copy, if you go to blockchain in 2035 dot com, you can get it there.
And I don’t even need to ask you questions. So what would you say, give me the highlights overview, what is Blockchain, look like in 2035.Well, the reality is we’re in a cross-roads in technology right now and the gist of the book is, if we don’t use lacing technology to take back control of our own data and our own privacy, our privacy is gonna be continued to be eroded, and we’re gonna be living in a technocrat where a handful of mega corporations are using AI systems surveillance systems to measure everything about us.
We make the example. Why does your washing machine really need to know which clothes you wore, that day and how many times you’ve worn? What does your toast or need to know how many times that you… You’ve made a certain kind of bread, right?
All of this information, all this data slowly eroding our privacy. So with blockchain technology, a specifically applied to cyber security and I’ve said this time in time again, properly applied, blockchain technology and fix 95% of the day, cybersecurity vulnerabilities tracks are becoming more and more prevalent.
You mean there’s a chance that, as we’re sitting here, both of our data is probably in the process of being compromised somewhere just because it’s out there and our local government, especially in America, do not take the proper steps to safeguard this data and information.
And this problem is gonna get much worse but I there is hope on the horizon, and that’s what we try to get across in this book, this future, where by the year 2035, you can use blocking technology to secure everything from all the personal devices in your home, from your phone to your router to your TV to even your healthcare records and much more, and we should be voting so we can have completely transparent honest elections to mitigate a lot of the fraud there.
That’s the future that we want to strive for and we believe it.
So that’s the gist of the book.
Because on the flip side, when I was in Beijing in 2016 speaking in a Chinese conference, I was slated between two Chinese researchers and they presented this vision that has now become the digital REM and B and their entire architecture. Literally, the chart. Their board showed their blockchain, with the central hub that could control everything.
And so when you’re talking about earlier this idea that they are blown away that you didn’t have 20% of the supply. They literally, I think as a group and as a culture of… See the future of blockchain as a way to control the economics of the rest of the world and when it…
Well, my take is, and I tell people who are cheerleading China’s all of a sudden the Chinese government decided that they love blockchain. Now, I said this is not something that you’re lead, this is not setting a lot because if one iota about the Chinese government and the Communist Party, there is that anything they can do anything they support will be to their benefit of centralized control of people.
It’ll be the exact opposite of what the ethos at least I come from with blockchain and decentralization is the opposite. They wanna be able to control people as much as possible, and if you think they’re gonna all of a sudden embrace some technology that gives up some power to their government, you’re out of your mind, they are weaning this and they’re gonna weaponized against their people, and I think they’re gonna export that Weinstein outside of their normal domain of operation.
Yeah, 100%. I literally saw the slides a part of it was in Chinese, but it was pretty apparent what it was in 2016. they had a map of the whole One Belt One Road initiative and as soon as they roll out this digital REM and B, they’re gonna be able to use that to exert control from ports throughout Africa through Europe and across the land route, in your Asia and that’s their plan.
Well, if you think about it, at least of what I know about how business is done in China, every major corporation over there has basically, a liaison or an Attache that sits at the company almost like a commode in wars as its return neater. Ines. A lot party member. Yeah, on the more an overseer really. And that’s what I tell people it’s like same thing with like mine, you’re like, Oh, the Chinese are mini legal and big client, I’m like No, they’re not. You don’t get access to hydro-power. And the Ganges, dam in China, if the Communist party isn’t excited about the priest.
I know people, I met people, when I was inside of China that were doing that. And it was told me straight up, the government was sponsoring say, with the mining hardware manufacturers, one percent.
And to me it’s funny you were talking about IoT kind of stuff. I don’t even have a ring, I don’t have a net, I don’t have any kind of smart devices in my house, I don’t even bring the technology into my house and it’s one ’cause people laugh at me. And I said, “You know what all I can assume is what I know about most of this hardware, is that it’s pretty much insecure and its surveillance technology. It’s all surveillance technology, right?
I went to Whole Foods today and they asked me to scan the QR code, so they knew exactly what food, I’m getting what I’m eating and I told the lady, I’m like… So what are they gonna do with this data in five years or they gonna start selling it to insurance companies, trying to predict what diseases, I’m gonna come down with because of what food I’m eating. So this is what I’m saying, we’re heading towards this era of complete surveillance technocrat.
And if we don’t stand up and start doing something to for this and take control of our own privacy and our own data, we may be too late. And that’s a huge part, in Chapter 2 is a revolution in ownership taking ownership of our own data our own money, our own information, and actually using that to make money. If somebody wants to reveal what food purchases, the… Are they should get a little reward for that, if they wanna reveal what clothes they’re actually wearing and washing to their IOT washing machine. Okay, well they should get paid for that, but at least in crypto data and their information using something like a zero knowledge proof or some other sort of innovative Philatelic technology, I think really… With the brave browser they’re pioneering that concept. And I’m like, “Okay I watch these I’ll click on an ad every now and then, I’m getting free bat at least I have control over that and I can shut that off when I want to. And you know what, if you think about it, they’re just being a little less greedy right? Yeah, exactly, in their share, yeah. Well, you look at…
I, I don’t like up. Sorry, go, sorry. No, I was gonna say is, you look at YouTube and some of these other centralized content creation portals, they’ve just really gotten outrageously greedy for sure. And in the political bias is becoming ever more apparent. And now I just saw the idea that they’re blocking all content regarding vaccines, on… Was it Facebook? I’m not seeing everything’s truthful. We all know there’s fake news, but the completely sense or something just because one group of people believes it’s right, it’s amazing how much I’ve seen the First Amendment rights in the United States be eroded in the last two years.
That’s scary, yeah, I… Well, we’re coming from a project. I actually don’t even have any interest in being on centralized exchanges at all, but I would much rather just be on exes and “tomic swap apps and things like that. But the problem is, as a project, you don’t get credit for that because the way projects are evaluated right now in the United States, and globally is what their market cap is on certain exchange of which to me is really a dumb way to measure a project, but that’s how we view it right now.
And to me, I’m moving towards in my mind, it’s all about the privacy and decentralization aspect where it seems that the heavy way players that are coming into this space, all about centralization, it’s like, kind of… I’m always a NASA but I think it’s just because I think things differently, and I look at things longer term, like the laws of Wyoming. I am doing great stuff.
Yeah, actually I was gonna say, I don’t like anything they’re doing up there for the most part, but I also used to know some of the people involved politically up there when I lived in Miami. But here’s the thing, if you look at the laws up there what they’re doing, they’re trying to make it… So Wyoming is Wall Street for crypto, and for crypto banking. And to me, I don’t want the states to get involved. I know they will but I’m saying is, if you think about it, they’re trying to make it. So it’s about being a competitor to Wall Street and basically, it’s all about centralization and physical custody, and things of that nature. And to me, that’s not where we need to be focusing our efforts, our focus should be de-criminalizing and changing the way things like the IRS treats crypto transactions. To me, I believe that personally is where people should be putting their energy politically, because I do believe that the IRS treatment of crypto is probably going to be the number one impediment to adoption especially by retailers. And I know that ’cause I talk to retailers and when they start hearing about the accounting things they have to deal with to be compliant with accepting crypto they’re not interested. That’s one of the biggest turn-offs. Most projects aren’t even involved. So we’re so far away from adoption in most cases that that objection, isn’t even been talked about to the by people, they always talk about the SEC, and… And realistically two years ago we started looking at the SEC laws when were looking we were thinking about doing an ICO originally, and we started looking… This actually does apply pretty old.
If we look at the SEC, in my opinion, the are actually do apply pretty straight forward to crypto. Now, a lot of crypto people will say they don’t. And I, I believe they do.
It’s pretty obvious when you read the case studies in this area of law is pretty obvious that this is what it is, but what doesn’t fit in my mind is the IRS. And you don’t hear really people bitching about that yet, and I think you will, but to me, it’s about getting away from the stat and empowering people and when you start talking about all the states doing this and that and like the… I don’t care what the state’s doing, I wanna get out of the way. We don’t need the state to help crypto we need to state to get out of the way of crypto which of course, when it comes down to… No, the argument’s gonna do that either.
Oh yeah, the libertarian in me. 100% agrees with you, right?
But from my understanding of Wyoming that they were trying to allow people to basically be in control of their own assets. ’cause I see two regulatory approaches and frameworks, forming in the United States. You have the New York crowd which is trying to push everybody down the traditional broker-dealer route and these clearing houses and maintain their monopoly that they already have.
I think Wyoming which is actually saying, “Hey no, people should be able to be able to in charge and take control our own stuff.
So that’s been my perspective on it.
I do, as a libertarian agree, Hey, we should be able to do what we’re doing. As long as a LIM A when it comes to reading laws. ’cause of my day job, I deal with a lot of law stuff ’cause I’m an expert witness, so I have to read loaded to be very politically active. One of the… I can get the bill for you, but one of the laws of Wyoming, if you want to maintain the protection of the state, you actually have to disclose all your foot digital assets to the CEO. There’s this that… Yeah, there’s a little… But it… This way there’s no sin. Gotcha, right we got is in there. Yeah, so as a… So, not a tight… Yeah, well, I guess there is no income tax and we want… But, well, then there’s also opines there’s all sorts of taxes, there’s not an income, tax yet, but there probably will be eventually, but here I’m not here to rat out my owning, just as I just get skeptical ’cause people say, “Oh I really like what X is doing, and then he’s like… Okay, did you look at the law itself?
You could read the big right. I didn’t actually read the bill. So, no one runs her in an eco. The bills and I always read the bills. I’ll give you an example, I’m a gun guy. And our projects really kind of in the gun space too. And so, Wyman fire and freedoms Bill, they were trying to pass a few years back when we lived up there. And the thing is, it was basically a bill and it sounded great.
That’s Pro-Gun. It’s excited on the gun, or as excited. And the whole concept was that it would make it… So if you made a gun in Wyoming, you didn’t have to comply, basically, you could not comply a Federal law if you didn’t take it outside. State. A woman, which is amazing, but the problem is there is nothing in the bill for the state to protect you from the federal government.
If I did that, so it was a really good sounding bill. It was a feel-good bill, but it didn’t actually have any teeth and it didn’t actually give the support needed so it never accounted, it never amounted anything.
So I always say, it’s like any time you start looking at laws, you gotta read the devil’s always in the details and look at the requirements. And so, for instance, “Otten bill, there was a God, they had a utility their first one or one of the first ones with the utility token law, but the problem is with the utility tokens their bill, it says There was a Gotha in the… Gotcha, and that was that. If you make this your utility token available for purchase as an investment that basically notifies the protections.
Well, what a… Well, what does that mean, while that means that if you put it on an exchange making it available for an Ivan investment, you now nullified all the was, or the protection of the bill. So, it sounds good, but then when you look at the bell it doesn’t do what people say it does. And I know a lot of people, I was very politically active and Wyoming. So I know a lot of policy wants up there, and so we have a lot of conversations about these things so things aren’t always what you think they are, right?
Yeah, and to end with it and it always comes down to also when is that law tested and what happens at that point? And we had to fall on the night for it.
Well, we haven’t had any… We haven’t had any of those laws tested at this point. So, it’s unproven how it’s going to be how it’s gonna play out.
I know a lot about the cannabis laws in Colorado. The devil is always in the details. Now, when you’ve got these super high taxes for men, 64 what now makes it… So the black market is thriving, because the taxes on recreational. weed or so expensive it’s cheaper to illegally, so right, and so it didn’t solve that problem which was what it was supposed to do.
It’s always able to details but… So going to a point you made earlier, I wanted about market caps, we actually have a whole chapter dedicated to evaluating and vetting a project, and we started off with something we call the market cap policy and how it’s an absolutely horrible metric of evaluating a project and we go through several pages explaining why an example. So it’s something I wanted to point out there, ’cause what you said before about market caps people just go and say, “Hey I wanna look at the top 10 or 15. first of all, you have projects that are actually unique and decentralized and we actually separated not chapter 9, a survey of existing blockchain protocols, Chapter 10, a survey of existing product projects, and we differentiate that a project is built on an independent protocol, but independent protocols are independent, and when you look at the Coin Market Cap like Top 50 there’s really only maybe a dozen, actually independent protocols, a lot of them are ERC-20 tokens, or stable coins or other things that should never be compared to truly decentralize independent protocols because they don’t have the same value. So we go into that in Chapter 11. so I just want to…
I think it’s important and I come back, I’m an entrepreneur, so I am not a developer, I look at things like marketing plan team, how it’s managed, the taking, how are they solving problems and whose problems are they’re solving? Those are the things that I look at. I’m just kind of… I always look at risk mitigation, and things like that, and it’s interesting, and this is why I’m actually bearish on a lot of the top hundred in really bearish on because if you look at who’s running these projects, it’s people that don’t have any background in running a project or a business or taking some of the market and most of them just got a lot of inertia from their initial ICO push, and they’re still writing. I think a lot of these projects are just writing the initial ICO kind of inertia, but I think ultimately in my mind eventually, projects are gonna have to be evaluated based on the number of people that are willing to pay to use them or are using them for a utilitarian purpose, and not just speculating.
Yeah, it has to happen. Well, a lot of these ICOS, they’re still paying for their own markets they’re they’re still hiring people to sit there and wash trade and increase their market cap.
We actually similar what you said we came up with, we call the blockchain 2035 rubric basically what chance does this project still have to be around in the year? 2035?
And we identified basically five areas, the economic model and the vision, which consensus algorithm that it’s built upon or protocol, the number of actual full nodes on the network, the age of the protocol or the project and then what kind of governance model and team… And then we go through and we actually talk about several areas to give people pointers where to go look at for that. So anyway, that’s a some good stuff, but yeah, I definitely agree with you on that.
And so one of my last questions are based on input from your community, what are you doing about quantum computing and the risk that quantum computing posed to blockchains in the future?
So that is the very last chapter in the book, we call it the quantum leap, and we actually start off with a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, about the unknown unknowns, and the reality is, there’s a lot of things we don’t truly know yet and there are no… So I guess we got a differentiate here. So first of all, we give a little background and explaining what exactly quantum computing is and I think a lot of people don’t quite grasp the magnitude of the LEAP. The quantum will be…
’cause what it really means is, we’re going from just on or off the transistor. Zero were on, I don’t know, bits and binary to an exponential amount of possibilities in our system, so our entire ecosystem and code stack and everything that’s been built since World War II has to be rebuilt from the ground up with quantum computing, right, and so we haven’t even standardized what languages there are, what formats this work, the way I compare it is the biggest Advent in the digital era, after cloud, Shannon’s information theory, because at the end of the World War II, we had the ability to measure time we could measure distance we can measure weight but we couldn’t measure information, right? And then once you came up with that theory, and then once the transistor was developed at Bell Labs, that’s when we had our leap frog exponential moment into the digital revolution, right?
We haven’t really had that moment with quantum computing yet so because we haven’t had that moment we haven’t had the ability to actually truly test and understand quantum true quantum algorithms, so there really is none out there, but what we do have is what people are calling quantum resistant algorithms and there’s been an effort by NIS which is the National Institute for Standards and Technology, to create a next generation quantum resistant algorithm and there’s been several proposals it’s an ongoing process and the leader of that so far, that looks promising, in something called Spin, spin, plus, which could be used to replace “chatti in other algorithms and we’ve actually looked at potentially adopting that earlier, on with diabetes.
However, because it is more complex and computationally extensive, they would dramatically slow down, sink and validation times with a core wallet. So, they’re… There’s a trade-off. So, that algorithm hasn’t been I guess formally standardized, but it is supported by people. Like for instance, Ralph Merkle who invented public private key photography, he is also the founder of the merle. Tree data structure. In a blockchain, so he’s my opinion one of the the wise guys around and he’s still here giving us inside it and help.
So there’s really a lot of unknowns right now.
Well, I was gonna say that one of the reasons I actually oppose putting personalized information on the web, including medical information and including things like gun registrations, which I’ve heard from a few different places, is that at some point I do believe that Shaw 256 will be broken and it probably isn’t that far away. Next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And that’s a much bigger problem if personal informations on the blockchain. And this is something I think about.
And my wife’s a medical doctor. So, understand that we talk about… And she’s one of our co-founders, so we talk a lot about blockchain, and medical applications and we’ve both come out saying We don’t want medical stuff on water all or personal information because think of it this way.
And again, unless you have a quantum resistant kind of system, maybe that would change this, but under the current SHA 256 algorithm encryption protocol that everybody’s using right now, if you have a normal data breach with health records generally it’s one location, it gets leaked to the dark web but it’s not widespread. Typically, they’re going to sell the data, they’re just not giving away for free. The problem is if you have certain private information spread across thousands of nodes on a blockchain and all of a sudden your encryption just gets opened up to the wild.
Now, that data is really all over the place and there’s no way that that’s gonna limit the exposure of that data. Where is at least with normal data breaches, as they are now typically the data is not widespread, whereas I think it’d be a much bigger mess if, let’s just say a blockchain with information like that on it was exposed to… What would you think about that?
Well, first of all, I think you’re confusing to subjects, right? So, shot, to 56 is in hashing older. It’s one way.
So, when you hash something you’re not actually storing that data on the blockchain, right? When we talk about cracking a shot to 56-H and exposing private keys for a wallet that’s completely different than something when it comes to like your health history records that could be encrypted with something like a yes, right?
So those are kind of two different approaches there.
So I do think that what we have now is relatively…
I’m never gonna say anything is 100% absolute because there’s always the unknown, a notes, but I do think we’re in a phase specifically, by either using SHA 512 or adding something like singles for protecting assets, and so… And using the hashing ability of information in a bar chain I think that’s perfectly safe.
I do, because I think that’s one of the biggest misnomer a lot of people get confused on is, when you’re actually anchoring into a chain, some information, you’re anchoring a mathematical proof of that information and not the information itself.
So there’s no way of ever actually getting that data, if you’re just hashing it onto the chain if that makes sense. And that makes sense to me.
Locally, exposed, and that’s actually… We’re working on expanding a little bit more with Digi-assets to make that a little bit wider, known because things like that, or for instance, what we’re doing with DG ID to use your private keys, to replace passwords. There’s a lot of features and cryptographic use cases that I believe are super under-leverage when it comes to blocking technology.
But going back to the quantum question, I do believe that centralized systems banks, stuff like that, are gonna get hit way before blockchains will, because even if we shot to 56, the theoretical limit depending, it depends on the algorithm that you used the crack, right?
So there’s two algorithms that are been ferried that have been possible to make it easier to crack a lot of these cryptographic hashes, the shores algorithm and rovers algorithm and they’re different approaches.
And currently, so when we talk about quiet, it’s basically how many different states there are. Potential logic gates, right?
D-wave systems just sold a 5000-equipped machine, the loss sale in most national laboratory.
Right now, not all quantum computing machines are the same, not there’s basically two different types, one of them is more stable. That’s more for general purpose computing. I like the CP in your computer and then the other one’s kind of like an ASIC right? So the D-wave systems kinda like an ASIC. It’s only really good for a specific thing, whereas what Google’s 50 equipment, machine is for general purpose quantum computing, and those are the ones we really have to be worried about, right?
But some of the theoretical numbers say that if we hit a 5000 equipment machine, that could crack shot 56 and exposed private keys for Bitcoin funds, but that’s theoretical. Nobody’s done it but the reality is the people that are working on this or the biggest governments on the planet. Well, I was gonna say the people that have access to that technology are gonna be state actors and in probably intelligence a Military actors, and they’re not gonna tell you if it probably… Yeah, exactly. And so this is where we talk about the unknown unknowns, right?
All we can continue doing is building systems based upon the open source scientific data and information out there, which I am a believer in open source movements. I do believe in open source academic mathematical movement is always gonna supersede anything that’s done in a private corporation or some back rooms of a government. Because I think the collective mind of humanity is always gonna be stronger than a few isolated individuals who can’t share and collaborate, I think that makes a lot of sense. .
We’re getting close on time here. A dared. So where can people find out more about you, Digi-bite, and blockchain at 2035?
Well, so if you wanna know a little bit more about me, we talk about it in the book. So if you go to blockchain, 2035 dot com, we talk about our stories, how we ended up in the situation writing this book and how I started how I got involved with Digby, and blockchain.
If you’re looking to find out more about digit go-to… Did you bite that? I you can hit a stuff on a Telegram Chat.
We have a super passionate active, helpful community.
I’m not a CEO, I’m not in charge of anything. Nobody gets paid to work on Digi-item. It’s a completely grassroots decentralized project, so we warmly welcome everybody to come check us out and get involved in. If you wanna be a part of something, whether it’s building on top of the digit protocol or helping contribute to Core. There’s tons of things that we have going on right now,
Jared, thank you so much coming on today, thank you very much for having me.
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