Transcripts

Lennix Lai – OKEx Exchange Transcript

Lennix Lai - OKEx

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today, I’m pretty excited. We are talking to Lennox law. He’s Director of Financial markets of the oke x exchange. And they’re one of the biggest exchanges in the world. And I’m really excited to see what they’re up to. So Lennox, how are you today?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Hi, Rob. Yeah, sure. I’m really appreciated as we on the call. We were happy to see you folks here.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, so, um, let’s just jump right in here. And, you know, tell me a little bit about Okay, x hat, and how did you get involved with the crypto exchange world?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Yeah, my other background, the traditional finance background. So basically, I was a quon trader in Hong Kong for around 10 years. So I’m, I’m also kind of like compliance and regulatory guys in Hong Kong. So, like three and a half years ago, that’s where we’d like to join. Okay, yes. Because Because the okay group back in the time, would like to expand the exchange business internationally. back in time we are, we’re actually very big in China already. We overing Bitcoin Exchange servers for local currency, that becoming one of the best one of the biggest crypto exchange in China already, and we would like to expand to the international market. So that’s the reason I joined and starting to build and branded as the name of Okay, yes, the Okay, x name, actually very benchmarking Hong Kong exchange is also called H key x. So we will lie to branding, our exchanging expertise, and also the traditional financial knowledge, so to brand in the world to bring crypto to traditional finance. So that’s how it gets done for Okay, it’s like three and a half years ago.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So what would you say some of the biggest challenges are of running an international exchange right now.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
So we are actually one of the earliest player in the field. So back its time we gather a lot of good player like pinole nacer, but Phoenix, Khan base already in place cracking, that’s all the big we’re, we’re accurate, very, very small compared for we’re the biggest player back in the field. So good. So we think we we are facing several challenges. First, we are primarily and very, very Chinese based exchange. So everything in terms of the team in terms of the product, in terms of the gods are all very, very Chinese. So we have to change the entire organization style, the language or the culture within the organization. So if you think about it, every every, every anyone will ever run come in your thing that would actually agree that changing the culture changing how an organization work, can put upside down use agile for football. So bringing the international value and international culture back to your very China exchange is the most complex and complicated task that we ever engage. And also, we we do have a lot of problem on our product. So so we have to SM be a team with the financial known edge cells to completely redesign for every single aspect of all okay, yes, from all across all our products, spot derivative, so everything else from the gods. So I think that might be yourself a big challenge we we come across, but at the same time, we are facing regulatory challenge all around the world. So that we have the assembly of really big compliance teams to tackle regulation everywhere, and apply proper licensing and getting the proper sandbox in crypto. So while we’re talking to regulators, we have splaying of this as well to convince that we are trying to be a good guy. So we have to, I think, in general, we, we are actually building a rocket, but at the same time we are driving a Ferrari. That’s, that’s the whole that’s the summary.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, you know, I like Ferrari, so that’s good. But so what would you say the, the biggest challenges from a regulatory standpoint, at least geographically, which countries are the hardest ones to work in?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Yeah, I think back in time, like 2017 2018 our, I think all the Gulf Money can’t like being skeptic or some, some of them are actually quite hostile to, to crypto or to virtual currency. They have no knowledge at all to what’s going on in Bitcoin area. They are actually interest but they think that virtual currency or crypto actually engage a lot in unless it activities, anti money laundering. There’s some of the areas that regulators are mostly very concerned. And at the same time they’re trying to fit in, they’re trying to bring crypto try to explain crypto in a way that the current regulation that they’re already implementing, they’re trying to fit and crypto onto their current regulation, which is very difficult. So. So back in 2017 2018, most of our job is to explain to our regulators, to all those regulated, hey, this is crypto, this is just some kind of digital xx. And this is some kind of a digital asset that we would only allow KYC people to buy or sell, and exactly like a meeting your financial standard that your AML standards, so to explain all those stuff to all kind of regulators. So we starting to see some progress. So we see the US come over digital as a framework. We see some of the government like multiskilled, Malta government to have a virtual currency framework. We see Korea and Japanese government, they do endorse and have some kind of regulation related to cryptocurrency after after the industrial of commitment for around two years or more.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So would you say is there a particular jurisdiction that’s been harder to work with?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
I think there’s no jurisdiction that is hard to work with as long as they they are open to talk about are they’re not being hostile companies shut the door. Most of the jurisdiction I would say they would eager, eager to learn were, were very eager to learn from the biggest player in the field. They will like to understand they of course, they will raise a lot of question. But each of us have the jurisdiction of particular friendly, like a Singaporean governments and the Korean government. And even the Maltese government actually quite proactive to want to draft local regulation or specific regulation just for crypto. The other jurisdiction, I think they are very interest, they would like to bring in the crypto, the crypto xx into debt, the security law, or the derivative law, they are interest, but at the same time, they were actually very difficult for them to to actually blend in the current regulations.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
How do you see things like the travel rule affecting your operations?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
I think the travel rule did actually spend spent a lot of effort for us to completely redesigned out how the how the AML KYC would be implemented into into the current operation. So before that is accurate, we don’t need to, we only need to worry about the global standards update our KYC AML AML. But travel rules actually means that we have to specifically design our checking procedures for all the European biggest customers across the field. I don’t think that is a trouble a big problem to our operation. But it’s just caught one of the costs of the business if you want to play the field with the big boy, we want to be a global platform. That’s just part of the cost of operation. We’re happy to pay for that.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So do you have much of a footprint you would say in the United States at this point?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
We don’t have we don’t allow us customers at the moment that is fun. It’s fun time.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Is that something you’re going to do in the future? You think you don’t have to look if it’s proprietary you don’t have to answer but I was just curious is that on your roadmap?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Actually we do have a partner exchange as you belong to a similar group is called okay con. So a ready get up basically orderlies in in us say over the open to the US customers. So it’s really completely different platform is that is basically a partner with Okay, yes. But only that the product that available on Okay, Khan platform is very very different than OKEx, but the technology and the and and the matching engine is using similar technology OKEx.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Actually got the one of their marketing guys is coming on my show on Wednesday. This week.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
That’s awesome.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Sure. So yeah, it’s gonna be fun. And so I think, you know, that’s always fascinating to me is, you know, how, you know, the regulatory piece of this looks from the inside. Like I always say, when I’m when you know, I’m kind of mixed, are kind of in a weird position, because I also have a project, but I’m also you know, and you doing a podcast and things. So it’s like, when I see crypto from a very different angle on because on the project side, you see, you see the world very differently in crypto when you’re working inside of it. And, you know, you see all the warts, and, you know, the good and the bad all the way around. But I always like to hear, you know, what does it look like on the exchange side, because, you know, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of, you know, unscrupulous exchanges out there. And I can tell you, having dealt with several of them in the past myself, and so that’s why I’m always interested in you know, the more legitimate exchanges like okay, x in what they’re doing and how they’re handling it. So let’s shift gears a little bit. You know, there’s, there’s a lot of exchanges out there. That seemed to be dodging regulation as part of their business model. I’m not gonna name names. Mm hmm. But there’s some exchanges that you don’t even know where they’re where they’re domiciled.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Mm hmm.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
In the row, and so since you don’t know where they’re domiciled, and it’s even interesting, even with smaller exchanges, you know, you go look up try to look up information on the exchange. And on coin market cap, it says they’re based here, and then you go to their website, and it says, their base there and you never know where they’re really located. And, and so that’s always kind of a red flag for me, is, especially at the centralized exchange, because they’re not you don’t know where they are. So there’s supposed to be a centralized routing, that correct, there’s no central location to go. And I’m not saying you should go after people, but, you know, you don’t know who these people are, in some cases or where they are right. And it seems like some of these exchanges are doing it deliberately to avoid complying with you know, international regulations. Again, not going to name names but how do you guys compete with that?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
We don’t need to compete wave the wave this some the exchange was smaller Sykes Chang that’s trying to doubt regulations, okay. He exists 1000 people group already so we cannot doubt any regulation, we actually equally comply to the jurisdiction that we allow to surface that we offer our service, we cannot we have to we have 1000 people to be responsible. But for all the other smaller sigh exchange, they have the reason maybe they have the reason to, to try and get up regulation as much as they can, because some of the really small sites chain is kind of like us using hidden ranch approach. They just want to open a small exchange trying to grab the users based on can’t if there’s some trouble there’s as close down and reopen Yeah, in another one using similar technologies. And so, so, so, of course, I would like to invite other users to be aware of the of the of the of the really, really small size exchange, and they you and you basically apparently you cannot find where they are they do they do not have a register overs, or they do not have a property you may you don’t need to know where they base, they don’t show up on time. So, and some exchanges do not have a long history with short history you you have to be be aware of that because talking about central exchange, meaning that all the crypto acts act as an custody with the with the hand of the founding team or the wallet team. So so so actually, you carry a lot a lot of counterparty risk, if you will lie to trade with them. So girl someday, some of this most exchange also do not have a high priority or high high scrutiny of the project that allowed it to list on the exchange. Most of the exchange mode most of the project is required to pay a huge sums of listing fee in order to get listed two bonds of small exchange that grabs exposure users, traders as they can and try to win the way in in a relatively short period of time. The the opening exchange in terms of module cars is relatively easy. But running an exchange operation with proper cyber security Republic compliance team, the proper operation team is take the years of years of efforts. So I would also always to emphasize the SSA only focus on the major exchange in the world because they already there they have the history and and and protecting your crypto execs from millions of millions hacker in the world is not an easy task. It’s a date and day by day commitment. So we we care a lot about our reputation, we care a lot about regulation, we have to comply everywhere in terms of regulation. So it’s I don’t think it’s the as a direct competition with us, compared with the other smaller exchanges.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So right now the the best I can see there’s at least probably, I don’t know, 500 exchanges out there right now floating around. And there seems to be more popping up, you know, every single day. And there also seems to be a lot more decks is kind of in various, you know, stages of development. Oh, how do you see the market for exchanges in the future? Do you think centralized exchanges are going to be you know, the most popular? Do you think dex is going to become more popular? Do you think there’ll be more exchanges out there fewer exchanges, what do you think your? What do you think the future is gonna hold that way?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Yeah, I think I think that the potential with DAX is actually for interesting. So that’s can be the only problem for DAX maybe before or, or for this few years, as people have been talking about. It’s mostly related to the capacity, the technological capacity of whatever chain, whatever blockchain that you’re implementing. So but we see silver these years that we see a lot of breakthrough in the under underlying technologies that have a huge promise on on the TPS, that transactional per seconds, right now, per blots. So those look like that DAGs, if they can manage to handle a search even a certain portion of the trading volume, that’s currently our central exchange is currently trading per day, I think that would give us an interesting use case potential to crypto so that everyone will would able to trade universally. And also everyone collects their own token universally, and that technologic technology is free. It’s open source. So everyone would have the capability to operate to open it DAGs and, and and eventually, everyone can compete with each other with a unique event age or unique appetite to different tokens. So tasks can be can be very interesting. Can I think if somehow, if the technic tech, technical side, transform your technical side becoming really promising, like the TPS reaches certain thresholds, and it’s safe enough to be trustable to two to four traders, and the UI and UX the user experience side of using das has been substantially improved it the tags in terms of trading volume and the size can could be grows exponentially. But while the central exchange, I think that’s still play a very important a crucial role. In in crypto in crypto x RP uses carry a lot of expect in in, in, in in define. So for example, like center central exchanges do are happening to having a lot of products very complex product that’s basically right now cannot cannot able to cannot able to undertake by the tax for now, for example, like derivatives of perpetual swap, we’re talking about millions of millions of borders or of thousand thousand trade per days, but it cannot be executed with our proper high frequency matching engine at this point moment.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So essentially, as the technology improves, and maybe you start getting these non custodial cross, you know, chain indexes, those are probably increase over time, but it’s just not quite there yet, I guess.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Yeah, I think I think it’s getting a lot faster right now, but per lepromatous standing, we’re talking about some of the Kings don’t care about thousand TPS compared to 20 or 30, TPS in one or two years ago. So if it is go around two or three times more, I think we can handle probably on spot exchange ready. And some of the really, and, and I’m talking about some of the DAX, that’s able to manage derivatives, if they are able to manage the liquidation engine of the derivatives under this certain time of DAX under that under, under, there’s a dow around 1000. TPS, that will be so interesting because because read when you’re talking about highly leveraged Chang, when the market is move, you have to execute and use, you have to send your orders in the blink of a second otherwise, otherwise, you’re you’re you you would trigger Casa de liquidation or you create, you create problem of trouble in onto your problem, I’ll do a platform. So that I will be very, very interesting to see that how does handle highly leveraged instruments?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
It’ll be interesting. What’s your take on the latest sushi sandwiches and hamburger de fi products that are out there?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Yep. I think that everything is everything is looking to be right now is having having an insanely high yield for some of the token, I think, in general, I think is an other way for distributing token or distributing newly the newly minted token to user this looks exactly like the another way of the Ico or default token in 2017. Or, or or or the ieo. That that changed initial offering is a new or or B. I think it does vary because airdrops so whoever carrier one token you got, you got a candy. We’re called airdrop tokens free token from the token. So similar mechanism. The ultimate purpose is is also a sales of my own newly minted token. But what defy or sushi or hamburger was over sashimi is actually having a mechanism in place, meaning that you have to stick one token first, for for an for an odd token in order from any other token. So that would that actually the sticking components normally is over collateralized, meaning that you have to deposit more token first, in order to in order means or farm, relatively smaller size of token. So the risk compared to other risk compare if the other the other? The other mechanism dies? The other distribution mechanism? I think that would be a lot a bit a bit more healthier to token holder. And I think that define innovation would last for really a long time. I think. I think I agree. The the either inflation rate or youth right now is insane is not sustainable. But the way that how we understand defy the way that people are interesting participant divide a project that allowed it or that we would be perfectly to participant divide would be becoming a really, really hot trend for for upcoming years.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I think the future is going to be very interesting in this space. I you know, I’ve haven’t been shy. I’ve been saying that this, in many respects is Ico 2.0. And, and I just hope that the fallout that comes out of this is good innovation. But it’s gonna crash back down. Right? I think you said it too. It’s not sustainable. What we’re seeing out there, but what I’m hoping is that there’s new innovation in the technology is and I’m hoping that’s what comes out of this. But I’m afraid we’re probably gonna get a lot more regulatory scrutiny from this, as well. So it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Yeah, you’re you were there. You cannot deny that every new maybe new technology or new money or new new way of thinking has to be crazy from chaos. So So these kind of define chaos, this might not be sustainable. The river market corruption. Now were they there Painful correction to their way might be a rousing, regulatories good knee, as you mentioned, but eventually these kind of token distribution method would be an interesting insight for the upcoming define development. So people will actually think about, hey, that’s going to work. But if we want to do it sustainably, I think we have to change it to certain matter. And that will become a healthy growth order for the industry.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Totally agree with that? Um, so where do you see crypto changing in the next couple of years? What What do you think will be the next big innovations coming out and say the next three to five years?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Wow, that’s Sir, I would. I would, personally Personally, I would the very exciting dad’s similar model as in Filecoin, that people can actually share data on chain and tray, that data on chain with the development of fire codes so far gone, it just might be a spark of the entire fire. So, so similar project lifelike on even what your tablet data privacy, your personal data that can be exchangeable, or, or your physical might be stuck with storage, you can just tray, or buy, or sell your own personal storage within every kind of computer that can be traded or transact, via on trading. But these economic and trading mechanism would be an interesting insight or interesting. Hence, for the other data driven industry. So people can sell everything if they carry a data. So fire icon might be the success of the fire gone, hopefully, would become a very interesting development for crypto for the next three and a half, three and five years because right now, if I can sell my idle storage, either virtual drive online, like like a cloud based server, but but so that I can basically sell everything I can using the exact similar mechanism, or similar blockchain or similar token omics to say everything that have data currently available. That’s might be the beauty the very first through adoption for blockchain technologies.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I think that’s very interesting. And, and I think there’s gonna be a lot of interesting use cases. For instance, I really have a library, you know, library credits, I like bat is doing the brave browser, where you actually are developing ecosystems that are using the crypto. And I think that’s important. And even with our TUSC project, that’s what our focus was, is is, you know, getting people to use the coin, not just speculative hype. And and I think that will be the future. And I think the big or most, I think some of the the products that are most likely to be mass adopted in the future are going to be ones that you don’t even think about right now. They’re they’re going to be ones that just slowly start building up an ecosystem where people are using their coin for a practical purpose. And to me, I think that’s really important. So I guess that one last question for you kind of wind down? Do you think there’s too many assets? Do you think that there’ll be more assets in the future, like more blockchains more coins? More tokens? Or do you see that that over time, that’s going to consolidate down?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Um, I would say, bro, for To be frank. So I think the the barrier of cause of issuing or maintaining or creating tokens for hype or speculations, whoo, still be there is this part of the crypto ecosystem, but but when you when you get speculate more people will lose money. And people getting smarter and smarter, when it gets smarter. And when they get the a lot, a bit more cons cautious, a lot a bit more conservative, they were looking to they would be tend to be looking for the true nature, the true adoption of certain tokens. So that money will be will be really concentrating back into 1% of top 1% of the token to actually bring the value of the world that we’re starting to look at fundamental. So I think I would say New token was still there. There were a lot more, getting a lot more sizes. But but growing, so going from yours, right took about one two years or more. I think the capital, or the capital that all catered to crypto access will be mostly or heavily concentrated to a real project eventually.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, I think so as well. I think what I’ve said I’ve said this in my circle of friends is that the first kryptos does start getting a real adoption even, you know, Nish adoption, not even mass adoption, but just niche adoption are gonna eventually change the way the speculative part of the market values those projects

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Right , correct.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
How I see it is you have billion dollar market cap projects that don’t have any customers.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Correct. You’re right. You’re actually you absolutely right. I think people right now is like looking for answer right. If you can save a spark to fire and you provide true answer. You got all the you got everything. You get all everything that’s pay people for speculate money. We’re just crunching and advice to your own projects.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Exactly. Linux Ly, where can people get ahold of you? Sorry, how can people find out how can people reach you?

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
So I think you can basically reach out now traitors and my email is Linux at okay yes.com You can find my traitors that us as well. So you can reach out anytime. I’m happy to answer all the questions.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Thanks. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate your time and I’ve learned a lot.

Lennix Lai – OKEx.com
Thank you, Rob appreciate, talk to you again. Thank you. Thanks so much,

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You have a great day.

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Joe Roets – Dragonchain Transcript

Joe Roets - Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Dragonchain

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today I am super excited. I am talking to Joe Rhodes he is one of the founders of Dragon and coin. They are project been around for some time and i think it’s it’s gonna be a really fun show. So make sure you listen to the whole show because I know you guys out there. He listened for five minutes and then you shut it off. You got to stop doing that stuff, because I can tell that you’re doing that stuff. All right, I really can’t. I’m just guessing. But anyways, Joe, welcome to the show. How are you today, sir?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m great.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So, let’s let’s just jump in here, man. You know, typical questions for a podcast like who is Joe rotes? Tell me about yourself.

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Okay, um, I’m..I’m I grew up in the Midwest. I’m a 25 plus year, software architect. I’m all about software all about open source all about scaling software. And I’ve worked for Lockheed. I’ve worked for Disney. I’ve worked for a lot of interests. firms that that had interesting projects that attracted me. And I came across Bitcoin, one of my guys brought it into the team in 2010. And we looked at it started playing with it, experimenting with it, doing a lot of different interesting things, some stupid, some fun, you know, we’re really early stuff. And this is the only time of namecoin and and you know, way before aetherium and way before much else was out there and ended up jumping around between a few different startups, you know, because I was very interested in the tech and and specifically in its philosophical value, you know, where, why, where it came from, why it was even there. And then ended up at Disney to build what became dragon chain and the Disney released from you know, from in its its own in in enterprise to the world and You know, after that we commercialized.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So tell me about that. So it was initially a Disney projects that got spun out. So did they just open source it? Or was it you know, something that was always kind of that open source community kind of thing? What’s the relationship there now?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
We originally built it, it was very much an experiment is very, you know, very much a bunch of us that were interested in the tech and how we could use it inside of Disney. Um, but I, I knew because we were in, we were working inside a W three, see their blockchain group two, you know, basically explore enterprise applications, and you know, what can be standardized and everything else and we, we ended up realizing that, you know, all these other entities, you know, IBM, Microsoft, a lot of the other groups, some of the banks that were in there, were interested in how we were doing it because what we were describing was stuff that they hadn’t been able to do Because we started from scratch, we didn’t work, Ethereum we did aetherium didn’t exist when we started. We didn’t work Bitcoin or Litecoin, or anything else, we literally started from the beginning. And we had you know, I’m, that’s the reason I even say that I’m primarily a software architect, I’m a software guy. And these things that are patterns in all systems, that’s that’s what I focus on. So I find the, the abstractions inside of a software system that can either make it more flexible, make it more scalable, make it more secure. And I applied that across the board to know basically blockchain and crypto that’s what dragon chain is. And when they realized that we were using devs, that that weren’t blockchain devs they were the devs we already had and that they were able to come in and just build stuff. When we were able to show them that we could actually scale in a radically different way than what they had seen. If I was able to then take some of their questions that we couldn’t answer, because it was all in the inside back to Disney and say, Hey, can we, you know, go through a process and you know, try to source this and you know, they had they already had a process in place. And so it just, it made sense. It made sense for Disney, it made sense for the project, and it made sense for, you know, our working with these other groups. So, that’s how it kind of ended up and yeah, they basically we went through and it’s, it’s now you know, we’ve made it public the process we went through, but it’s, it was a pretty intensive and interesting process that was involved legal involved patents, trademarks and involved the code itself security. And you know, making sure we pulled out proprietary code and things like that, but they just open sourced it and part of that they have a really interesting process that they they have to hand over the code To the person on the outside, and typically, it’s somebody who’s still working at Disney, and who, whose manager or VP sponsor has basically said, Yeah, you can spend every Friday working on this or, you know, something like that. And with with our team, we had a team that was cross a whole bunch of different business units. And so our sponsoring manager didn’t have anything on my time. So we had to, like broker deals between the groups and stuff like that and on Viet on the way out, when they’re going to hand it over to me personally. I asked them, Hey, can you guys approve me to create a foundation so we can, you know, say that will own the IP will own the code? So won’t be Joe, you know, and it worked out. So it’s pretty interesting.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So what did you intend for your blockchain to do was there like a specific problem you’re kind of trying to solve with it?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Um, enterprise adoption. If that were the Specific because core capabilities of blockchain and cryptocurrency being proof that something happened at a particular point in time, you know, and that being the core of what even Bitcoin actually gives, is used to, you know, in Bitcoin is that is used to prevent double spend to, you know, to provide scarcity, but it’s all related to the fact that that block can with with a measured amount of security, you know, that’s an actual measurable amount of security that’s been applied to whether you trust that these transactions occurred between these two points in time. And so, you know, we basically were looking okay all of the core, abstracted cases capabilities of the technology itself blockchain. We wanted to to leverage in ways that you know, you couldn’t do with time with Bitcoin and you couldn’t do when aetherium came out, which is, you know, any any reasonable business is not going to put customer PII on chain. They’re not going to, you know, there’s HIPAA data, there’s, there’s all types of things they can’t do. And we wanted to make all of that possible. And to make it much, much more straightforward for a real business to use.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So how did it end up working out?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Um, we did. We also want on the inside. I mean, we did over 20 different use cases. We did a lot of different things. Some of them were, you know, internal hackathons and things like that. But there were a lot of groups that were that were using and building and when we open sourced, we went for a year, fully on just straight open source. You know, managing Community Education trying to, you know, figure out what we needed to work on most. And in that year, we realized that the actual rollout and scaling, you know, it was, it was missing, the ease of use factor, the, you know, the architecture is very simple, it’s easy to code to, but to deploy it on, you know, the model that came out of Disney was a large, very large organization that can run all of the nodes themselves if they wanted to, because they have enough business units that you have the diversity, you know, so that all of the enterprise can see, okay, these are the transactions going through everywhere and all that. But we very much needed it to be a situation that if someone wanted to build something, they didn’t have to worry about the verification network, right? That that it would be provided for them. And so that’s why we commercialized and we, you know, created an entity and, and really decided to, you know, build an network and to build the infrastructure to allow people to deploy more easily.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So you build something from scratch which you know which in blockchain is kind of weird right everybody just kind of forks an existing code base that’s been vetted and beat up a little bit. How would you say dragon chain is different than say the base the code base for a theory amor, the code base for you know, Bitcoin or some of the, you know, graphene based block chains.

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Um, it is it’s an interesting thing because like all of the pho policy would have for saying, Okay, I’m going to create my own are not necessarily clickable because we are definitely not coding our own encryption or coding or you know, any any of the cryptography is all, you know, used for outside. So I wouldn’t want to say that it is more than anything a structural peace, where we, for one thing, there are a lot of different things about it. That it is primarily just software and that at every level of our consensus process, we are actually working with independent nodes where every node has its own blockchain. And the consensus is not it’s a hybrid network. So the consensus is not universal. That is, I own my own business I haven’t I have a business node that I’m either ledgering transactions on or I’m running smart contracts on and I can keep that you know, by default is fully private on and the only thing that moves up through consensus is the the protocol elements, which are the you know, basically the wrappers. So my payload itself is fully controlled by me I can expose it publicly if I want, but I’m for a regular business. It’s very fitting all the the same models apply that it’s as if I’m working on a on a server, and I’m storing my stuff there. I’m using it but the difference is that the wrappers around what I’m doing are all going through a six six separate dragon that nodes and then a combined security of aetherium and Bitcoin and aetherium Classic and whatever else we’re entertaining with the time on, which is for the proof so now I can basically show vendor or you know, later the courts if I’m getting sued, I can show somebody, this is exactly what happened and you don’t even have to trust me, you can actually you can actually do the math all the way up to Bitcoin and aetherium. And, and, you know, we we really, from the early days, knew that we wanted to leverage the tremendous hash power of Bitcoin and at any other network, but also the utility that is, um, you know, especially early on when we knew that You know, the ability to entertain with stores or with saya coin or any, you know, any of any of the other important utility networks that we could add as well as traditional that, you know, we’ve done plenty of integrations with RESTful API, very traditional systems that because of our model, it’s remarkably easy. And they are our time to market or most of the projects we’ve been on are really short, really fast build outs. So it’s pretty cool. And it also help with scaling. Because then the fact that every node has its own chain means they can all be independently scaled. They can they can run in with full cloud environments. And Gosh, yeah, is this a really long answer, um, the good the other. The other side of that is when you get into that, one of the other very unique pieces that most people Don’t don’t get yet is our actual scaling is based not on hardware because we’re, we’re cloud based. So we already knew that we could have ended up if we’re trying to incentivize people to run nodes that we have diversity there, that you could have a race to the bottom. Because, gosh, I’m just going to deploy it to Amazon, I’m going to throw up enough nodes to handle 80% of network and undercut everybody on my, my, what I’m going to accept you charge for fees, right? And in order to prevent that, we flipped the scarcity on its head and said, okay, instead of saying hardware scarcity, where you know, most blockchains out there, if you have more transactions coming through, there’s hopefully more fees usually, and therefore more people will procure hardware and put it in place and build a network, right. And you hope that it’s sustained traffic, so that If the person doesn’t know, the fees continue and the traffic continues. And the issue is the time between the traffic start, and when people can actually deploy hardware, which, you know, if it’s in cloud, it can be pretty quick. But, um, it’s not immediate, right? And in particularly, you know, if it’s not something that’s easily done in cloud because of your requiring hash power or anything else, it’s even more difficult. So, what we did is we took what was called DDS s, which was a slumber score, which is a time based component to our token. So if you hold a one dragon for one day, you get one time. If you hold a million dragons for one day, you get 1 million time for that day. And we take that time and that’s the scarcity. So all the nodes in the network competing based upon how long they’ve held how many dragons And they get more of the cut but on the other side the the the radically in at least to me interesting part for for adoption of scalability is the fact that the more time I have as a business that I want to apply to my node, the lower my fees are right and so it but it’s a deterministic fixed price fee for every transaction I sent through and the token price inside the system adjusts every month based upon market but to the general business user, they don’t really care they’re basically I’m gonna pay my you know 5000 10,000 a month for my node or nodes and I know that I have at least this many transactions and I know that the transactions will not go up in price that I won’t have trouble getting a transaction on chain or anything else no matter who else deploys on network right the you know, crypto kitties comes out, it doesn’t kill me. You know, defy comes out. Kill me right cuz right now it’s it’s really hard on aetherium to do business um, and it’s really unpredictable you know minute to one minute to next but with with Dragon chain you know that if you lock in the feed the fees and your lowest fee right now is 2510 millions of $1 per transaction and so you can lock in that number and you know when you have these you know you have the 500 million transactions you’re going to have this month that is absolutely going to be at that fixed price you don’t have to worry as a business you don’t have to worry about getting lunch chain all that’s cooked so..

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So would you say it’s so can you launch a token on your your platform on dragon is there is that part of that or are you do not do smart contracts the same way.

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Um, we do smart contracts and we do have tokens and we have something that we’ve termed a wormhole tech. It’s basically Consider something as, consider a theorem as a different, different universe and a theorem classic is a different universe. And maybe I don’t know what other preferred, you know, maybe EOS or somewhere else that I might have a token that we can map them back and forth. We do that with Dragons. That’s how dragons operate already where we use aetherium for its ecosystem, its token standards and security, right. And it means that we didn’t have to build our own hardware wallets. We didn’t have to do a lot of things. We were leveraging Ethereum for that utility. And you can do that already. We’ve had quite a few people do it. And we’ve we’ve helped out a lot with that. But it’s a it’s a, it’s a scaling question for that right where, you know, there’s no reason instead in many cases for every single transaction to be on aetherium instead If you put it on dragon chain it’s secured to a theorem and secured a Bitcoin and so you can prove all that but then when you’re actually integrating like say is a game that you know the game can be played you could you could roll this into a normal game where there’s no blockchain sold as part of it, but when people realize, Oh, I have this, this device this sword this, you know something that that I have accumulated enough of and maybe I don’t need this one or something else that I can realize at that point. Oh, this is crypto. You mean I could sell this somewhere? How do I do that? And they say it’s an adoption question because then you can get people to play your game without them already being crypto people which is such a you know, nice have a nice have a nice to get normies to play it but then to attract normies into your token, where they’re like, Oh gosh, I’m gonna I was already having fun. Now I realize I can make money doing this right where that At that point, that’s when you integrate with the crypto side and the others cost involved where people pay fees or whatever else. But at that point, it’s it sets its own threshold. Right that you know, right now, you’d have to have a lot more value in a theorem to exit in order to make it worth the fee. Right. But kind of depends on how much is sitting there.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I know I’m going back to when with our project with TUSC. When we started out, we weren’t eath token and it for us the nail in the coffin to build our own blockchain and move away from a theory was the F coin debacle two years ago, where they were just spamming the Ethereum blockchain and like it is right now. The cost to move tokens costs more than the tokens people wanted to move because of the transaction fees, which makes no sense to me and I have a lot of strong opinions but because I’ve been in as a project for a couple of years now as well, and, and I just It doesn’t make sense to me the way his theory was designed From a usability standpoint, and it’s like it, there’s, it’s baffling to me how they came up with the system the way it did. But, you know, it’s, it’s fascinating. So I always like to talk about what I when I talk to people that are developing projects and stuff and how, how do you get adoption? What is your strategy to get people to use dragon chain to build things on?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Um, well, we’ve gone through a number and some of them were, you know, you can get into libertarian side of things with, you know, we our initial piece to the engine was to have what we call the incubator or early on became dragonscale, which was supposed to be a very clean way to get incentivized input from people on the outside as to which projects should be moved forward. Right. And so there’s some funding to that, but there’s some selection to that and attention and and had a lot of really key features where it would have flatly solved a lot of the problems that the SEC is concerned about or other regulators were, you know, how do I avoid people? You know, how do I avoid exit scams? How do I avoid you know, and we had all that cooked in where it’s very clean way to be fair on both sides, where you know, early information, if, if it is correct, could be well rewarded, right. So, you know, people are incentivized to not lie, people are incentivized to end in on the other side, the projects are incentivized to actually deliver, because they don’t deliver, they don’t get their, their distributions of, you know, whatever the funding is on. And we had to pull back for some of that for us based on which was sad because that was clearly an advantage for adoption between a lot of interested parties. And we’re trying still to find we have a new take on it, that we think we could launch in the US but It’s not a top priority right now. And we we, we are actually actively looking actively looking for partners to do it internationally, you know that whether it’s for grants or other selection, but you know, VCs would be kind of primary. But right now what we’re working on is simply scale, you know, to be the the the system that can actually compete against traditional systems for scale. And definitely Trump them on security, and various other features that, you know, blockchain makes, you know, it’s pretty obvious and in that world, and so, you know, we’re really focused there and you know, we just launched a new pricing table where you know, we’d wanted it updated for quite a while. We’re now at transaction fees anywhere from $1 on the high end to, like I said, the 25/10,000,000 of a dollar and we’re getting a lot of interest because of that, and a lot of people are starting to realize what’s possible. And we’re also trying to do a lot of things that might to some seem a little bit you know, like they might not understand but you know, we launched launched on den den dot social and that’s basically a community forum that is native blockchain. So everything on the back end and there’s mining, and we really are trying to build out stuff that people can use both normal people and enterprises, right. So, you know, we just launched dragon factor my five which is a decentralized identity system that the back end has been operational for over two years. And you know, we’re just now Okay, we want to productize this now. We want other people to be able to use this like we have and and we have some really interesting aspects that we found a partner that could help us with some of the integrations that, you know, frankly, were more, you know, banking focused, you know, the typically things that banks do with identity were needed. But we were rolling in the ability to do it in a decentralized way where the user holds their own identity factors and can’t expose them as they wish, right? They don’t have to expose everything, they can expose just the smallest bit of information that passes whatever the business wants needs. And, um, you know, we’re basically, I mean, our strategy overall is very fundamentals based where we build and build and build and we figure out, you know, what does someone need we build it, we figure out okay, what would be a good demonstration of that capability, we build it and we’ve done it enough. I mean, we have a couple of systems that really are well used. You know, we get a lot of Transactions on eternal as an example people saving tweets and saving out various arbitrary information that they want to be able to prove later, you know, make some prediction on bitcoin price. I’ll put it there. And I can prove to you that is not just a screenshot that I photoshopped, you know, it’s this is literally data proven to, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of security, you know, so interesting stuff like that. I don’t know. It’s hard to cut through noise though. There’s so much noise out there right.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And it’s only getting noisier isn’t it?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Yeah. Yeah. And all the all the speculation and all of the that that I you know, sometimes that’s a big complaint that I have.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Right, I hear ya. No, opinions, right? What do you think of DEFI?

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
I don’t want to, I don’t want to say anything early. Right. I mean, I saw the Fenton. We always played the Fenton thing yesterday on our show, because it’s so well done. If you haven’t seen it explain DEFI, you know, but my take is I think that there has to be, and I’m too busy to really research projects, like I used to, I used to know everything about everything coming out, but, you know, there weren’t as many then either. There have to be, I would make, I would put money down that there are at least a handful of amazing projects in that space, right. And stuff that’s really needed. That’s really well done. And it’s an amazing future. But somehow, they get cut, you know, they get they, they lose attention to, you know, 10 Ds and yams and stuff, and it’s just, it’s crazy, and it’s not good for the industry. I don’t think that stuff, right. Um, and, you know, it’s always the thing where money is such a powerful driver to all of this. And the reason I even got into this, I’m a software guy. So the reason I got into this is this was frankly, the most exciting place to be in software forever, right? That’s the next near the next closest would have been, you know, Linux and open source itself. And you know, that’s very general thing but it’s funny because Linux is very much about liberty. Right? And whether you talk to Stallman or you know, it’s very much about Liberty This is such a key component. And basically Bitcoin embodies that Bitcoin is radically so you know, I’ve talked before about how the fact that it has I say this it basically enslaves humans it incentivize humans to such a level that it’s the most massively focused on processing in on earth is Bitcoin mining it you know, blows away supercomputer metrics and everything else because there’s a money driver. And so the key that, that the world missing is at least that this industry is missing is keeping a balance between that and the fundamentals. Because it’s so easy for something like defy to come along with like, Oh, it’s a way to make money, it’s going to go up next week. All it matters is a green bar. It doesn’t matter what it does at all. And there’s, there’s, you know, there’s value to that, because it can drive people to be interested. But the problem is when people are lazy, and they don’t actually research or they buy tokens, and don’t actually try to, you know, the real incentive should literally be if you hold a token. And based upon your holdings, really, you should be focused on how can I help those projects? Because literally, that is the best thing. It’s not good to say I bought this token or what are you guys doing? Right? Why is this token not for real? Why is this token price not going up? as well? It’s so backwards. It’s like, people shouldn’t be lazy. You You hold it,in our case, our tokens, our software licenses, literally they are modeled from the beginning. We even have a patent on that, on that the token model as a software license that it was supposed to be the answer the licensing answer to what happens right now with commodity compute, you know, with Amazon, you shouldn’t be paying monthly still, you know, it you should be paying as part of and you know, the fact that you are paying for however much CPU use on fits, and we just tokenize that and so if you’re holding dragons, you should be actively seeking integrations business, even marketing, whatever your talents are, right? Um, but a lot of people get lazy and you know, it happens on all projects, you know, where people just want it to go up and you know, it’s, yeah.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I always say you can’t bank on people not being lazy. In fact, I think the reverse I think you have to build systems. That is assumes that and then tries to figure out how to incentivize those people. Because I mean, we’ve run into the same thing right telegram group, why not go up or whatever it’s like it’s it’s pretty interesting. I do agree with you, I think, you know, people should do their research should do homework and, and should be more active and supporting. I’m just I’m not sure that’s realistic.

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
It’s like, I could see that, um, it’s the weirdest thing though, because you think about it. Most businesses, they have customers and the customers have their products and they don’t care otherwise. Right. But, um, you know, Apple and a few other few other companies have had something where it’s almost like a cult where people will actively promote for for no money, right? So there’s some there’s something psychological there on the intent, though, of, of crypto is that the the incentive is built in you hold that you actually own the token. Nobody can take it away from you. You You should literally be as incentivized as possible to actually try to promote, and sometimes you can see it, but it’s not maybe fun. focused, right, anyway.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, it’s interesting because, you see, I say success breeds success, right? Like if it’s starting to become popular that people want to be a part of that and talk about it. It’s that’s that tribal mentality, I think, and even with us when you know, our project, I mean, we’re not anywhere near where you guys are, but it’s like, you know, we can see when we have an announcement or you know, something cool really happens. It just gets people excited and they talk more about it when things are boring or low or not going the right direction. People get quiet about it. And I think part of that with crypto, you know, it’s it’s about that tribal identity and people want to associate with the winning team. They don’t want to they want they don’t want to associate with losing teams. That’s why it’s like you know, Bitcoin maximalist right I mean, you know, I’m not a big fan of Maxis on any project but if you look at Bitcoin maximalist it’s like okay, well you just like went to the number one football team and then you signed up for them and you’re there chiller. Well that’s that’s lazy, you know that, you know, it’s just like, okay, just sit there yay, yay great number one team keep going, you know and it’s like there’s more to it than that. But I do I mean I do appreciate your time and I think this is it’s good stuff and I and I you know I I’m gonna be doing a little more research and dragon I haven’t, you know, you in you know, inspired me to kind of do my own research here and and spend a little more time looking at what you guys are doing because you are doing some different things. And I think I hope the listeners here will take a look at dragon chain as well and see what you guys are doing. And you know, I hope in the future, you guys can come back or you can come back on and let me know when you got some cool, you know, projects happening or some cool announcements. I’d really like that. So, Joe, where can people find out more about you and dragon chain

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Dragon chain.com primary we also do various things on den Deus social. And you know, you can reach out to us on telegram. I mean, there there are multiple official and unofficial telegram groups and multiple languages we have. We even have multiple language layers now and dim dot social so people can at least read about and ask about dragon chain in their own language with their own, you know, people that can answer directly so it’s pretty nice. And there are a lot of places I guess.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I appreciate your time.

Joe Roets – Dragonchain.com
Thanks Rob.

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Nicolas Hernandez – Fantasy Gold Transcript

Nicolas Hernandez - Fantasy Gold

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today I am talking to Nikko Hernandez. He is developer out of Columbia, South America, or Central America, wherever that is. And today we’re talking about their project, which is pretty cool. It’s called fantasy gold. So welcome to the show. Niko. How are you today?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Good. Good. Thank you very much for having me. doing very well. Thank you.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Unlike most Americans, unlike go like most Americans, I’m geography independent, or geography illiterate man, I’m having a bad day today. So, where are you in Colombia?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
This is South America and Central America.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You know, it’s like I’m having a long day.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
It happens, it happens. So, we’re in those channels, about two hours outside of Bogota.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So when you think of crypto and tech hubs, you don’t normally think of South America. Am I right?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Correct. So although meta gene is becoming a really big tech hub actually met again is considered one of the most tech advanced cities in South America. There’s actually a couple of blockchain companies there exchanges and other other types of projects, no coins or tokens that I know of. But there are some some blockchain companies that are doing wallets and exchanges and things like that.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
That’s very cool. It’s interesting, because I go to a lot of conferences, and I talk to a lot of people. And it seems like South America and Africa are like the two regions, then you don’t hear a lot about crypto from yet. And I do think that there’s a lot of potential in those different markets. But before we kind of jump into all that, kind of tell me a little bit about who you are, how did you get into the space? What do you up to how did you first hear about crypto and what got you into doing a project?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Sure. So let them doing things on the internet since 96. So back when AOL was the thing, and it was just started trying to creep out and getting to the mainstream before DSL, and all of this other stuff. So I was doing network setup, server rooms and that sort of thing. And later on, I got into, you know, doing some purchasing and selling of source codes, you know, closed in source codes, like, maybe there was a, I would look for projects that were marketable, but maybe the developer had kind of lost the passion for the product, something that I might see a market for. So I started buying and selling source code to things like Facebook apps and you know, other websites and things like that. So then, later on, we also started a security company. So we started security company here in Columbia. I was running for quite a number of years, doing a lot of network and access security control for big corporations, government installations, that sort of thing. And then there we kind of decided to close that business. I started looking at, you know, I wanted to do a fun project. And one of the fun things that I learned to do in the States was actually fantasy sports. So I hired a team of guys and we took about a year year and a half to, to develop a fantasy sports platform. So if you think like fanduel or DraftKings, you know, we were modeled basically after those those sites and became a successful business in terms of white label actually had a lot of companies approached me and licensed software from me and they would throw on their front ends. Then use my back end. Later on, I decided I want to launch my software, the software that I that I had built, and I want to show it to people. And you know, at that time PayPal and the other traditional type of processors were really getting, you know, stringent on who they will allow in. So and they were even freezing some accounts. So I didn’t want to have to deal with that. And I had studied a little bit about blockchain already. At that point, I had already bought some Bitcoins. I had some masternodes from a few coins, like small coins. And so I was always already interested in it as an investment for myself. But then I thought and I said, Well, if I can’t use PayPal or one of the other mainstream, you know, credit card processors, you know, this is a perfect use for this. Then anybody can play this play on the site. You don’t have to have a PayPal account or credit card to play if you have some digital currency you can play and, and, you know, enter into contests and tournaments on the site. So that’s how we that’s how we kind of started it out. So we initially launched in July 2017. So we’re running out three years now on the blockchain.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So where do you see it? going? What is your ultimate kind of goal for this project?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Well, my goal always has been to build a full ecosystem for anyone wanting to do fantasy sports eSports, any type of gaming because the way that I see things going is I feel like there’s going to be these small niche industries that have their own coins, right. So you don’t need it doesn’t have the same type of coin. You know, there’s there can only be one won you know Bitcoin or Bitcoin cash whatever camp you belong to there. You’ve got, you know, your aetherium, which has its its use case, of course, great model. And, you know, coins like dash and pivots. You know, I see those is like the umbrella type of currencies and then everything down below there should have some sort of ecosystem some reason to, to want to, to have that coin right, not just to buy it and oh, I hope it 10 X is next week or next month. You know, you’re going to buy a token and Okay, what can I do with this token? Now? Can I play a video game? Sure. Can I bet on fantasy sports? No problem. You know, can I do eSports? Absolutely. So, you know, we’re trying to make something that’s use case oriented, not just hype, and, you know, we’re gonna have this great stuff sometime in the future, you know, so That’s that’s kind of where I see us going. And hopefully, we’ll be able to track some additional developers since our chain supports smart, smart contracts and tokens. So we’re hoping to showcase some some good products and that we’ve made here in house. And hopefully that will inspire some other developers to say, Hey, you know what, maybe instead of Ethereum or Tron, maybe I should think about making a token on fantasy gold. Because, you know, that’s where, you know, maybe they have, you know, an audience that’s already going to appreciate what I have to offer, you know, the product or the app that I’m building.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You done some innovative things compared to a lot of other smart contracts platforms, I think namely with interoperability with other block chains. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Sure. So So obviously, we have, you know, the important component there is going to be the Ethereum virtual machine, right so in our chain, there Also in a theory and vote virtual machine running on the network, which supports the contracts. And the we didn’t do anything to the protocol other than rename it for a naming convention on the chain from ERC 20 to FGC 20. So you can basically decide, well, I have a Tron token. But I also like to have a nfdc token, you can copy paste your, your your smart contract into the compiler, grab the byte code and paste it into your FGC wallet and submit the contract and now you have a token on on both chains.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So are those tokens and would they be a duplicate token on each chain? Or is that just meaning that your ERC 20 token is now completely compatible on the fantasy gold blockchain?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Yeah, it would be essentially two separate tokens. But for example, if you have a Tron token or an aetherium token and you’re worried about things like gas network times. You know, it might make sense for you to just say, Hey, you know what, instead of a theorem, I’ll just, I already have my code done, I can just copy paste and, and, you know, create my my token on the on the FGC chain.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So if I was gonna say swap from an ERC 22 and FGC 21, how easy is it for the exchanges to adopt that and then track that.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
So basically with a swap for the exchanges to do that. If they support FGC chain, if that’s already listed on that exchange, all they have to do is add a single line to their configure file. And they’re able to support FTC 20 tokens, right? So it’s not a complicated thing for the exchanges to do. And the the address that in exchange gives you. So your typical FTC address that you generate, whether it’s in your wallet or on an exchange, that same address is also you can also be used for tokens to send and receive tokens. So for the exchange for an outside exchange, this should be a fairly straightforward process. And then we are also right now we’re in closed beta, and we are adding FTC 20 tokens to our own exchange. So if there was a swap, we would also you know, be willing to help to help people facilitate those swaps on the exchange.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
When is your exchange launching?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Well, like I said, right now we’re in closed beta, I have some UI issues that I’m not happy about, you know, I want things to to update in real time without refreshing. So we’ve got most of the market parameters doing that now. And so I think right now, we’re just looking at finishing up the CFTC 20 tokens, hoping that this week, we can finish that and start testing those. And hopefully we can also clean up the UI a little bit, and get it ready for the initial public launch. So hopefully, one to two weeks, we might be able to open up to public beta and start, start seeing some transactions going on there.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So is your project a centralized project or a decentralized project?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Decentralized, very decentralized. You know, we didn’t sell the big Ico and hold back a lot of coins. You know, team members, that current team now that’s holding coins, they own coins, because they purchased them, they weren’t giving anything in an Ico. And so there’s not, you know, a centralized control over those things, you know, 99% of the tokens that are in production now or out in the market now or owned by the community. So and we also So in 2018, we received the letter of opinion that we are a decentralized utility, not a not a currency, not a coin.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So is there a foundation or any kind of Corporation behind this? Or is it just completely on chain governance?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Just completely on chain governance. You know, at, at some points if we get some, some commercial success in some of our projects, you know, corporations will have to be set up, you know, to pay in any legal taxes required and, you know, whatever jurisdiction we’re operating in at that point.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So, how does your blockchain play with others in the sandbox?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
How do you mean?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So, you know, how do you deal with for instance, you know, with Bitcoin, I read somewhere, you guys have some, you know, functionality crossed chain that can work with the Bitcoin blockchain. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Sure, well, the coin is essentially Bitcoin using the unspent transaction, and it has the aetherium EBM sub module. So there’s a sub module in the chain in the code that handles all of the Ethereum type of virtual machine requirements in c++ so that it works with our Bitcoin Bitcoin based blockchain. So it’s basically Bitcoin but with an added instead of, you know, doing your typical proof of work mining, it’s proof of stake. So the nodes the the users out there who are staking coins, they’re they’re the ones that are processing and verifying transactions. And then, you know, the block reward is handed out to 10 people in the staking pool who’s ever staking out That time individually, you know, when a block is created, it gets sent out to 10 people for for the block reward.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So where are you in your roadmap outside? I know you said you’re in your beta right now closed beta for your exchange. Where are you at the blockchain in the crypto community piece of this? Or do you have any kind of integrations right now or any partnerships of note? That would be interesting to hear about?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Yeah, I don’t know which names I can mention. We are speaking with a, an Esports group that has a pretty, pretty large following. They have a token on another chain, and they, you know, they’re looking at switching over to us, we’ve been in talks with them quite a bit. I’ll actually help them put their token together, the way that they want it to be done, and they’re, they’re hopefully going to swap over from their token to an FTC 20 token here shortly. Where Have the partnership with FTC arena, which, you know, they’re getting some some things worked out on their end, both internally and with the site. But once they do that, you know, FTC arena will have its own token. And so other than that there are some partnerships with potential partnerships with, you know, other developers who are either thinking about or already have done something in blockchain and are are considering looking at us for for their chain to run their tokens on.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So in your ecosystem, I mean, it seems like you got a couple things going on and just help me understand. So you have your own crypto that is traded already on exchanges and things and you would like that to be used for say betting or in sports game, you know, in sports eSports you know, in game purchases and that kind of thing. But then you also have this separate, you know, smart contracts platform where other people can build the Their own tokens on the back of your network. Is that correct?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Kind of Yeah. So FTC, the base currency, as, as I guess I would call it the base currency, the base coin is FTC. And so if people would like to adopt FTC and use FTC on the website directly they can. So we’re trying to provide those tools, you know, the necessary JavaScript libraries and web three libraries to do all of that stuff. A lot of that stuff is in our GitHub already. But, you know, essentially, if they don’t want to use FGC, and they want to create their own token, then they have that option to do so they can very easily and very simply just, you know, make their own token and deploy it and use that instead of the, instead of the base token, it’s the base coin itself.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Would you expect that people that are building tokens on your network would be like Largely also used in the esports arena? Or are you thinking that they’ll just be used for anything? I guess what I would think about is like, Is there a risk of cannibalization between your existing base currency and these other tokens if they’re both kind of focused on the same space?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Not really, because so for example, we have draft daily that was running successfully for quite some time, we were actually the first crypto that had an actual functioning and working daily fantasy sports sites. Even before the others while they were still in planning. We came out with the product first. That was actually working. So let’s say we decide okay, well, we’ve got a little bit of time too. And we have sports back Of course, we will need sports to come back. So if sports comes back and we relaunch draft daily, we’ve already have our draft dollars token on the chain for that site. If another fantasy site wants to come in and make their own token, that’s fine with us. Maybe they provide a different user experience. Maybe they provide a different way to play the game different rule sets that they like better different sports, you know, anything that they want. That’s different. The, the fact that there’s two coins, two tokens, they’re on the same space, trying to compete for kind of the same customers. not that big of a deal, because at the end of the day, just like a theorem, you, you have to pay a gas, right? So in our chain, if you’re doing transactions with tokens back and forth, you’re paying a gas, but in this case, the gases FGC and that gas that’s spent on those transactions, whether you know, you have Rob’s fantasy token and draft dollars token, if I’m doing transactions and playing on one or either of the sites. The user still have to have some FTC in their wallets to pay for those transactions. And those those fees, those transaction fees that are in FTC, actually hundred percent of that go back to the staking pool. So for example, our block reward is five FTC per block. Well, if you have some transactions mixed in with that block, that block could be seven or eight. And it’s going to go out be divided up to those 10 people that are up next for the staking reward. So you know, you’re creating an ecosystem that benefits everybody, the holders, the takers, and at the end of the day, the individual apps, it’s dependent on them to make the user experience that the users want to play with, you know.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So are your transaction speeds are they pretty fast? How fast is a confirmation on your blockchain?

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
So block time is approximately two minutes right now, but The transaction speed is very fast. It’s almost instantaneous. So, for example, in beta testing the exchange testing withdrawals was obviously very important. I would say, in less than five seconds from you clicking the Submit withdraw and it being, you know, allowed through the admin. You’re going to see it on your desktop wallet. Nice. Yeah. So it’s, it’s um, I mean, I don’t I don’t want to use words like instantaneous but it’s it’s pretty close to it.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So gas I we were with Tosca originally and eath token and then we built on blockchain. And in gas was a pain in the ass on a theory and in fact, gas is one of the main reasons we left a theorem. Have you done anything to differentiate how you guys treat gas then say aetherium is doing or is it the same kind of, you know, same kind of complications.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
No, it’s um, well in aetherium, you know, you have aetherium, which is the base coin, you have your token, and you have your gas. So they’ve introduced this third thing into the equation. So we in our system, get FCC is the gas. So there’s no, there’s no third piece to the puzzle. Which, which helps things quite a bit makes things a little bit more leaner and, and a little, a lot less complicated. So you don’t have to have a theory of mind gas and your token you have just your token and your FGC.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, that’s how it is on a theory. I mean, you just a theory is the gas on the Ethereum blockchain. So..

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Right but on a theorem, can you also collect gas separately? You can separate your gas now Okay, then now it’s a

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, so yeah, it’s a theorem is the gas that It’s interesting. gas is really complicated. Like if you go like, like that. I mean, it really is, you wouldn’t believe how many developers don’t understand gas. And I’m not a developer, but I understand gas. It’s like pretty funny. To me. And that was one of the reasons I don’t like a lot of smart contra. I’ll be honest and nothing. I haven’t even looked at your stuff yet. So as far as your blockchain, but I think that’s one of the things I think from a usability standpoint about smart contracts platforms is you need a separate gas. And or, you know, you have to use this underlying base currency to run tokens around. I think there’s a usability issue. And I don’t know what the solution to that is. You know, I always thought it makes more sense to me if the tokens could be moved across the blockchain in their own currencies so that users and users don’t need to buy two kryptos to move the one token, for instance. So if that, to me, I think there’s a huge barrier to adoption out there with smartphones and this is not just a theory It’s most of the smart contract platforms either have the same issue, right. But we thought that it would be a lot better if the gas was built into the native token. And that somehow, then the token could settle out with the base blockchain for paying for the transactions. So that end users didn’t need to buy the additional coin to run the grass. I don’t know the solution to that. But it just that was one of the problems we hated about a theorem. And even our own developers. It’s amazing when you get into the people that are developers don’t understand how a Ethereum gas works.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, timeout transactions and things like that, especially with when you’re building the app. So we built two D apps. When we were a token, one to distribute our tokens and one to swap our tokens on a blockchain and the gas was a big hang up for most people like trying to deal with that piece of it and setting it and make sure you have enough gas and but making sure you’re not spending too much gas and Things like that. So I don’t know, I don’t know what the solution is for that.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
But well, when the difference, then between us and Ethereum would be the cost of the coin and the gas fee. So we try to keep the gas fee pretty low. It’s actually 40 SATs is I think it’s well, we have it out right now. And in the gas fee itself for for these transactions. So 40 SATs in aetherium versus 40 SATs and fantasy gold, you’re looking at quite a price differential there in a fixed fee. Yeah, no, you know, it can be adjusted. So for example, part of the decentralized governments of the chain is we can actually change things like gas fees without having to do any sort of soft fork or any any sort of major upgrade.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
That would that’s I think that’s I think that’s a smart move personally, because the value of the token goes up, you’re gonna want to keep that fee low.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Right? And you can in within the wallet itself, while you’re while you’re sending tokens, you can change the gas fee, you know, you can pay a little bit more, you can pay the absolute minimum, you know, all depending on, you know, what the user needs to do or accomplish for that transaction.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So, how many tokens have moved over? So far from say, a theorem to fantasy gold,

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
So far, zero? So right now, we’re just in talks with a few people. You know, the last 12 months for blockchain, of course, has been pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty brutal for some people. So I think right now, we’re just kind of regrouping after that. After that, that that 12 month period that a lot of us have gone through, and we’re starting to get the name out there again, you know, We didn’t since we didn’t have a huge marketing budget or Ico for marketing. You know, we don’t have a huge amount of followers like, like some other coins. So, hope hopefully once that starts to take off and more and you know, through things like this great podcast here. You know, we can attract some more developers that will that will consider using it.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I hope that that works out. So Nikko where can people find out more about fantasy gold.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
So we have our main website, which is fantasy gold.io. And that website, just off the bat is actually in the process of being completely reworked. We have some things that we want to add to the roadmap update the roadmap and the overall design, away from fantasy sports specific genre over to a more generalized fantasy sports eSports gaming, that sort of thing. And from there, you know, our discord kind of great community right now, the mods, they’re very nice and pretty nice tip bot going on going around. So anybody that wants to join our discord, you’ll find the link on the website. And, you know, just come in, hang out and you might get some free FGC from people throwing around rain tips.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Wonderful. Niko, thank you so much for coming on the show today, folks, we’ll have all those links listed up at Rob McNealy calm. Make sure you hit that subscribe button. As always, it’s been great talking with you and thanks so much.

Nicolas Hernandez – FantasyGold.io
Okay, thank you, Rob.

Episode Links

Audio Interview
Video Interview
Interview Transcript

David Liebowitz – Everipedia Transcript

David Liebowitz - Everpedia

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today I am super excited we are talking to David Leibowitz, he is the Vice President of Business Development for ever pedia. And ever pedia is this new online not so new anymore, but it’s an online encyclopedia similar to Wikipedia, but it’s built on blockchain. And that’s what really gets me excited about these kind of new applications. So, David, welcome to the show. How are you today?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
I’m doing great. Thank you for having me, Rob. Really excited to be here.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I’m excited to have you here too, because I’ve been a big fan of your project now and tell me a little bit one. Let’s go I always like to back it up. Yeah, who are you? And I’m not gonna ask you how did you get into bitcoin? But how did you get into tech? How did

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
How I get into tech? It happened really by accident really, very naturally. So I’m originally from New Jersey. I grew up in the northeast went to school in Massachusetts, and I’ve always been a writer I got really good at writing in college, and that’s what originally led me to ever pedia. So I wrote a different blog. I’ve always been on the internet and stuff. And then ever pedia kind of came out to me out of nowhere. And I just started writing ever pedia pages, the encyclopedia entries. I’ve never pedia so I write about, you know, current events, you know, you know, I would call them evergreen pages. So I wrote a lot of like about up and coming musicians. I like I was doing a good enough of a job. They’re like, Hey, why don’t you move out to LA? I’m like, sure. like four years ago, I bought a one way ticket to LA. just sent it in September 2016. And I was there for four years. You know, I was just a writer. I was just making pages on stuff. We all live in this apartment in LA outside of UCLA. It was really like the Facebook movie. You know, everybody was living in that house. It was like that in an apartment. You know, the living room was the office. And then we kind of got pulled into crypto. We saw this opportunity in 2017 2018. You know, aetherium was getting hot. You know, smart contracts. We’re getting interest and we’re like, hey, like why don’t we make a decentralized transparent A mutable version of an encyclopedia if you want to really be a next generation encyclopedia, so I kind of hung around for the ride, as we know, we raised money. We got like a new office. And as ever pedia grew, I grew along with it. And so I was, you know, I’ve always been a social person, I’m really, you know, love talking to people meeting people. You know, we met, we only met like, on Saturday or Sunday as Friday on Twitter, and then we went shooting the other day, and it was a lot of fun. So I’ve always been a networker like that. And so, you know, I slowly got into more business stuff. There’s partnerships than exchanges, I got partnerships with anybody ranging from brave browser to a few years ago, I got partnership with the biggest teach in the world excision. So I’ve always been really good at that. And then, you know, got to work on exchanges. And now I’m doing PR, and it was really like, really a, I feel like it just happened so fast from being just an executive editor to being Vice President of Business Development. So it happened very naturally and very fast. And that’s how I got involved in tech.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So all those functions that you’ve been doing all those different kind of roles that you’ve been growing into which was your favorite so far and which was your least favorite so far?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
My favorite I think has to do with PR cuz I you know, I love telling stories and with PR you’re really telling the narrative of ever pedia and what we’re doing and you know, so that’s been my favorite so far, partnerships is up there too. It’s always partnerships. I’ve what I love about partnerships, it’s a lot of work, but it pays off so much in the end like it took you know, it takes you know, time and patience and you know, it’s just the same thing you’re trying to construct a narrative so you know, how is this partnership you know, mutually beneficial to you know, who you want to work with and to you know, who I work with every pedia so you know that’s definitely up there to me when you get the partnership I remember when we got the brave browser partnership. I was in Las Vegas up watching we can it’s just like such like a is definitely one of the crowning achievements of my career so far. probably my least favorite. I still like it, though, is dealing with exchanges and stuff just because you know, it’s just you have a cryptocurrency you understand what it’s like to do, and whatnot. But you know, I actually even though it’s my least favorite, I got like a ton of experience in there between, you know, dealing with people in negotiating standing your ground, knowing your worth. So even though you know, you learn a lot dealing with exchanges. Yeah.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And you and I talked offline about that, the trials of tribulation. And you know, one of the things that I thought was interesting about crypto is that, you know, I’ve been in business a long time, I’ve been an entrepreneur for a long time. And it’s like doing dealing with crypto. It’s like different than a normal startup, like, especially a decentralized project. So it’s like this weird hybrid mash up between being a nonprofit. This is how I always kind of describe a crypto decentralized project. It’s kind of like a nonprofit, kind of like a co op. And then you’re a publicly traded Company basically, at the same time, your global company, and you got all those things in the mix. And even as someone who’s, you know, done a lot of startups and stuff, all that a lot of that stuff is new to me too.

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
And it’s funny, we don’t need it. This is my first time really in business and stuff. And so this is what this is what I’m used to, and it’s such it’s such a nexus of all these different things that you were saying, you know, and it’s just really you know, and the thing was crypto evolves so fast, it’s so easy to get left behind and even if you don’t pay attention for a few months, hell like I was I wasn’t really paying attention this weekend because I was just, you know, driving down here and I felt like I missed so much over the weekend. So you always have to be on your toes and crypto.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Oh and stuff is definitely changing. So you said when you first went to ever pedia they weren’t blockchain based.

No we weren’t we were just the normal website. You know, I’ll give you a little bit of background ever pedia. However PDS start in a little bit before that. So I don’t know if your listeners know but early And Wikipedia is history was a lot more egalitarian site, you know, there were a lot more open. So you know, pages being made about different kinds of subjects, they definitely had exponential growth over those first 10 years. And you had two camps of editors develop, develop. So you had your inclusiveness, which lead, Hey, everybody can have a page, if it’s a stub, it can be improved. And then you had your delicious, which we’re like, No, we got to be restrictive, we have to have requirements, they want it, you know, they want it to be that, that kind of way. And so around 2010, the Jewishness went out, and if you noticed, you know, kind of the editors, you know, cats off around 10 K, their pages capped off around 6 million, they had much slower growth, and pages that were being included on Wikipedia. And so they became a lot more strict and they had these notability requirements. And you know, there’s a lot of, you know, different complaints about their community and being toxic and all that you can look all that up on Google. So there’s definitely like an opportunity for an alternative to arise. And so that’s really how every pedia is came about in 2015. As you know, more inclusiveness, friendly, open minded version of an encyclopedia, a new way to do knowledge. And Paul Graham said in in 2010, there’s room to do to Wikipedia. Wikipedia did Encyclopedia Britannica. So I see ever pedia in that same element right there.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, it’s interesting, and I am not an ego test. But, you know, I’ve done a lot of things in my life. I mean, I was even a congressional candidate back in 2010. And, you know, worked on a lot of different projects and

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
..so much stuff, honestly, like you told me the other day, “I owned a liquor store, I did that.”

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
But I could never get a Wikipedia page like I wasn’t and it was funny because I was never notable enough by their standards, like, it was like, and not that I cared like, it wasn’t a big deal to me, but it was like to me though, it’s like, and I’ve met a couple Wikipedia kind of editors, and they wield a tremendous amount of power over that.

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Oh yeah, yeah, no they do. It’s it’s pretty abdurd how much power like these, uh, not me, not these unknown anonymous people have. And they’re, you know, Wikipedia is one of the top 10 websites in the world.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Right. And so there’s, there’s a lot of power in that. So you could you can change narratives with that. You can control narratives with that. And then there’s no accountability. And, and so to me, I’ve interacted with, like, you know, the founder of Wikipedia, on social media over the years and stuff and, and it’s clear that there’s a huge left leaning bias, not only by the founders, but the editors. And so and so to me, it’s like, you know, and again, it’s not that big of a deal to me, but I do see that as a problem is that if because they are such a powerful site? I mean, if you get a wiki page, that’s one of the first, you know, that’s one of the first pages that comes up

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
that is one of the best. Yeah,

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Right. And then in you know, a lot of the search engines also we’ll do a, you know, they’ll do a little excerpt from Wikipedia. And so to me, it’s like, you know, it’s what I just frustrates me. And and, you know, I, you know, we’ve talked a lot. I mean, I’m socially very tolerant, and you know, on some things very liberal, some things very conservative. I’m an independent minded guy. And it’s like, even but the conservative side of me goes, you know, it’s not right, that they’re there. They’re basically stifling opinions. They just don’t like. And so, yeah, so that’s what excites me..

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
The way they frame certain people and it’s undeserved. And they and the problem is the people that are framed a certain way, they can’t go in and change it because they’re not allowed to edit their own page.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Right. And that’s, that’s part of the problem. You know, I know I’m not gonna say who it is, but I do know, a crypto editor for Wikipedia. And he is about his left leaning is it Can you come and I’m like, why are you in crypto because crypto seems like the whole nature of crypto it seems a lot more libertarian to me. I mean that that at least that’s where I think you know that whole cipher funk you know, you know passed that drove a lot of this was very libertarian and cap, you know, kind of in that war world and then I’ve definitely seen like over the last, you know, three, four years as crypto becomes you know, really entrenched with the more Silicon Valley software world that whole left leaning thing is coming in and really kind of you know permeating so anyways it’s not supposed to be a political thing but you know, telling stories can be political so ever pedia How are you different from Wikipedia when it comes to that kind of notability and things of that nature?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Yeah, I like to think of ever pedia as the up and coming wiki and culture. So you know in what happened in 2010 between 2010 and now get a rise of influencers and YouTubers and all these people As you know, either millions of subscribers or hundreds of thousands of followers and whatnot, you know, people are searching for these people. But there isn’t a good scholarly wiki, maybe, you know, you’ll get like a click Beatty like wiki page that’s just for SEO, but you won’t really get a good quality page. And so that’s where we’re really ever pedia thrive. And for a long time, like that’s where we got a lot of our traffic. We also imported all of Wikipedia as well. So, you know, we had we had Wikipedia, I sometimes I like to think of every PDS of supplements in Wikipedia in a way. And now recently, we’ve been really doing a push to focus on cryptocurrency and blockchain content. So how you were talking about TUSC with me the other day, and you want to focus on just the gun industry. And really now that vertical like we decided for the best way for us to grow is to focus on cryptocurrency content, because that’s where we seem to get, you know, a lot of engagement on social media, you know, that’s where we get a lot of like new visitors to your site. That’s how we attract a lot of new editors as well. And so that’s where we’re really focusing on right now. But I’ve always thought of us as you know, up and coming with the culture instead. That.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So tell me about the economics?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Oh yeah, the token economics. So Ivor pedia runs on the IQ token and I really consider that the skin in the game for ever pedia. So in order to create a page or edit the site, you have to put up IQ. That’s the name of our token. So you put up 50 iq. So let’s say Rob, you want to edit your own page, you see the mistakes. And so you know, you edit your page, you make your changes, you submit the IQ and then there’s a 12 hour voting period where people vote with their IQ tokens whether to approve an edit or reject an edit. If it’s approved, you know, then you actually get rewarded newly minted IQ tokens if it’s rejected, then those IQ tokens are locked for a period of time.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And are they traded somewhere?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Yes. So if you want to edit the site and get involved and also we have predict as well as our prediction market platform, which we can get into later, were traded on binance trade on okay x we’re traded on Bitcoin next up it in Korea. some pretty big exchanges if you want to get involved.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So where do you see the possibilities in the future? What like what is the roadmap look like forever PDF.

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
So we’re really doing a big defy push, we see that, you know, in 2019, we actually launched our prediction market platform with predict. I call it the augur of iOS. And you were like, oh, but it’s a prediction market have to do with, you know, Encyclopedia, I think, you know, there are two sides to this same coin. Well, every pedia you know, is to circle knowledge and past knowledge, you know, people using the knowledge to contribute to these pages that are, you know, on the record, predicted future knowledge and people using you know, that what they know, to kind of anticipate future events and get, you know, reward if they’re right. And so, I see with a future push where, you know, we’ve been really building predicts out it’s a super clean platform. And then we want to add like a few new defy primitives and slowly evolved that out. So you know, we’re looking into Oracle’s as well having on Knowledge like that all this has to do with on chain knowledge. So Oracle’s and then possibly having, you know, synthetic assets, leverage, we’re, you know, we’re trying to explore all these different things, we actually have a, you know, we actually have a fund dedicated to funding these projects. So we have our IQ fund, where we committed over a million dollars worth of tokens to funding projects that have to do with everything I just said. So if any of you listeners are interested, they’re welcome to reach out to us.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So you said that you’re based on iOS 10? Is that correct?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Yes, yes, we’re based on iOS.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Why did you choose the EOS blockchain?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
A few reasons: One at the time, you know, to edit, you know, the problem is that they’re going back in 2017 2018. And so to this day, are the transaction you know, you know, everybody that deals with uniswap now, didn’t notice like the transaction fees and you know, the, you know, all the problems with their fees, you know, transactions and whatnot, speed and fees and whatnot. And so if you were to make an edit and every time you had to pay like a few bucks and make an edit, that’s doesn’t make economic sense. Both As you know, it’s you know, free, you know, free transactions and, and it just made much more sense for a consumer products like everipedia to be built on iOS than it would be to be built on it there. But there isn’t there yet for for that kind of debt. And also, we just got support from within the EOS community. They’re really excited about it from you know, people that are EOS token holders to like people high up in the EOS VC world. So we actually raised $30 million from EOS VCs and 2018 from galaxy digital. They were super excited about the project. So between, you know, the technical capabilities and the support we got, it just was only logical for us to build on iOS.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So right now, you mentioned that people can go through and vote on you know, whether or not to approve and edit or things like that. Is there a way that people can make money doing that kind of thing and breastfeeding on the platform?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Yeah, so the tokens are, you know, they have a monetary value. So we’ve had a few editors that are some power editors that have made it You know, hundreds, if not thousands of dollars worth of IQ tokens, especially if they held on to it over, you know, over the past year, we’ve been live since 2018. And so which is really cool. Do you think think about all the blockchain projects that constraints have in 2018, they were just a white paper and just never launched a product like we’ve been live even, you know, kind of, we’ve been through the store in the valley of the bear market. And, you know, now we’re just attracting more editors, there’s people like that want to get involved.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And you know, that’s really fun. I like the the platforms that I see now that are starting to evolve like ever pedia in library and some of these, you know, hives, were in brave browser and to me, personally, other than what I’m doing with TUSC those apps right now, to me are the shining stars in crypto.

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
I couldn’t agree more.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And the market, I don’t believe is fully appropriately valuating those projects that are valuing those projects yet. I think that’ll come But to me, I see that as the future and the fact that you have users and you have a product and you have sustainable built in economics on the platform. That, to me is a winning combination. And I hope that with our own product tests that we get to that point, we’re definitely working on that. But I really like what you guys are doing with your tokenomics. And I think that that’s going to be the future. And I think ultimately, projects like ever pedia are going to be major major block chains and major major projects. I would expect it you’ll be in the top 20 next year in the next couple of years. No doubt about that, in my mind.

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Yeah, I think the same way between what we have built the killer scene that we have, like we wouldn’t have been able to gone this far if we didn’t have just, you know, such a great team all around that everybody’s just so committed to the project and development and you mentioned brave browser before I would love to talk about our partnership with them. It actually fits really well with our ethos. So you know, I was thinking like, Well, you know, we’re We really fit well a with pages, you know, that are not novo enough with Wikipedia, but these people still need to be recognized. And so with brave browser, we have this partnership. One part of it is we have our brave creator of the day. And so you know, brave browser has all these different Yep, hundreds and thousands of people signed up accepting praise tips. But a lot of people in the bat community don’t know who to tip they don’t know where to start to, like, find people to support. And so with our brave creator of the day, we provide that so every, you know, every Tuesday and Thursday, will tweet out a brave creator of the day. And, you know, they’ll, you know, we get tons of streamers as they’re very creative. They, you know, we get, you know, analysts we get all kinds of different people become a very creative the day it’s got, you know, the brave community really likes it, the bat community, you know, they always hype when they see somebody on Reddit like, Oh, this is something new that we can support. So, you know, the brave team has really liked it. It’s been really beneficial for us, so far is beneficial to them as well. They really see it as a tool to help you know, promote their community within their community. And with us, we’ve been able to, you know, get free advertising some brave browser. And so we’ve been able to recruit editors that way as well.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Perfect. It’s really good stuff and I’m glad to see somebody really taking charge in this space. David, where can people find out more about you and ever PDF?

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Yeah, so you can find out about me I’m on Twitter at at Dave said that underscore on Instagram at doing things underscore forever PDF, you can go at every pedia on Twitter, definitely join our group at everipedia. And, you know, no, come say hi. You know, we’re always you know, we’re always looking for new people. We’re very welcoming computed community, make a pacer yourself make a page for you know, somebody you look up to you. You know, we’re here.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
David, thank you for so much for coming on and spending time with me today. Appreciate your time here. Thank you so much. No problem. Hey, there’s Rob McNealy here. I will have all of David’s so And all those links up at Rob McNealy calm make sure you mash that subscribe button. Review us on iTunes. let your friends know how great we are. We really appreciate it. Let him know. Alright guys, you have a great day. Thank you.

David Liebowitz – Everipedia
Thank you

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Interview Transcript

Richard Carthon – Crypto Current Transcript

Richard Carthon - Crypto Current

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today, I’m excited. I am talking to Richard karsan. He is the founder and host of the crypto currency podcast is a longtime community member in the crypto space. And I really like his take on a lot of different issues. So I think we’re gonna have a really good show today. So, Richard, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
I’m great. appreciate you having me today. Rob, um, man, we had a before getting on this, you know, just various conversations, I think there is plenty of topics that we can cover and, and it’s just, uh, it’s really cool to see all the projects that you have going on and your involvement in the space and really excited to to be sharing some of what I got going on to share with your audience. So looking forward to it.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I appreciate that, you know, I actually like talking to other podcasters. And the main reason that is, is because I talked to a bunch of people and talk to a lot of projects. I’m also involved in a project but then you talk to lots of projects, and we talked to different ones, and then we compare notes. And I think, you know, the cool thing is is and really Why I like doing this program is because I get to speak to lots of really smart people and I like being the dumbest guy in the room, not the smartest guy in the room.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Yeah, I heard that. I mean, when I look back on when I originally started cryptocurrency, it was to surround myself with thought leaders in the space but then not only just educate myself, it’s educate everyone else right? And I feel that the best way to learn is from people who can break it down for you. So anything new anything, pet causes change, there’s friction and there’s like a resistance to wanting to learn just be like, Oh, that’s too tough or, like, get a good idea. I don’t want I want to talk about this right? And but when when someone sparks your curiosity when someone says something that’s like, Hmm, I haven’t thought about like that. Or Huh, I could do something with that. It just opens the doors to so many possibilities that before a weren’t even on your mind, but then to that just opened themselves in a way that you like, I want to go deeper in this and find a way to get involved. So I agree, man, it’s it’s cool to talk to very intelligent people. passionate people, and and people who really want to go deeper on on what it is that they’re working on. And it’s exciting.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So how did you get into this space? How did you get into doing the crypto stuff? Not just a podcast, but what got you interested in this area?

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Yeah. So I mean, I’ve been an entrepreneur, basically my entire adult life. And I was working at this artificial intelligence company. And the first day on the job, my boss comes up and says, Hey, what do you know about Bitcoin? I was like, what’s that? Right? And he’s, like, trust me want to look into it. And so I did. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, why did it? Why didn’t I learn about this earlier? So like, I was a late bloomer. I didn’t I first learned about this January 2018. Right. And the first thing that came to me was one, this has been around for almost a decade. Why am I just not hearing about this? So what does that what does that say about my circles that I’m in, but then to even in those circles, who is really active In trying to dive in be a person that can be a reliable source to educate me on this. So when I in 2018, when I first got into and I was trying to educate myself, I went to all the YouTube channels and these web forms and all this stuff and everything was very technical. Everything was very, like, either pie in the sky get rich quick or like super, super technical on here’s how blockchain works. Here’s how hard forking is, here’s this white paper and I was just like, I just want someone to, like, give this to me straight give this to me very simply. And like do it in a really cool and like, compelling way. And I was like, you know, I was like, I just want to talk to these people. I was like, I might as well like create a way to share it. And so that’s when the concept of cryptocurrency came about. And, you know, it’s it’s been amazing to be able to communicate with so many different thought leaders and then like even today, like being able to speak with you like it is such a easy way to talk to very intelligent people who can not only speak to Several different topics that speak very intelligently to them, but then can also like, challenge you in ways to continue to expand your knowledge. And to give you a new perspective on something that you that you might have felt very differently about, you know, I mean,

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Absolutely. And I think, I think part of the problem you just illustrated, like with people, you know, speaking in, you know, Techno ease, right, is, is a function that so many crypto projects are really just developer LED, or super developer heavy. And a lot of times they don’t understand, you know, how to speak to normal people. And I don’t mean that in a bad way, right. You know, would like our test project I’m focused on you know, we’re marketing to, I would say, for the most part a pretty low tech industry. I don’t go in and talk about censorship, resistance and all this, you know, you know, I don’t even talk about I mean, think about that we can get and all that stuff, but here’s the thing that people don’t even understand how How do you explain a decentralized organization to people that don’t understand? And this is how I do it right? I you know, if I’m talking to like a gun retailer about POS, I say this, I don’t say we’re a decentralized project. What I say is we’re like I say, this is how I say it. We’re kind of like a, we’re a, like a nonprofit, kind of a cross between a nonprofit and a co op. Oh, they understand that right away. There’s a connection. In you know, I don’t lead with all this in tech news, I say, half a percent track, you know, half a percent transaction fee, no chargebacks. And you get your coins instantly deposited in your wallet. So you don’t have to wait for an ACH so it improves your cash flow. Guess what? I don’t have retailers say no to that.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Yeah. And that’s what you need, right? When you’re speaking in, especially with any company that you have, and this is definitely speaking to our entrepreneurial background. But when you’re going to Pitch Anything. The first thought in anyone’s head is no, like, whatever you’re trying to sell me just just know just off the bat, right? Is No. And so how do you break down those guards? The first thing is through effective communication. And it is making sure that whatever you’re trying to explain is very clear. And that it not only just concise but I can understand it, comprehend it and then make an intelligent decision. If I don’t understand anything that you’re saying, My we’re done talking like there’s there’s nothing for me to think about because I can’t even relate to what’s going on and what I think was happening initial in the 2018, Ico boom, and all this money flooding the market and we’re at the top of where Bitcoin was before you know, everything started coming down. And you saw all these projects coming in that were just they weren’t building for the future. They were building for the here and now and how can I make a ton of money really quick. And they’re just putting all this technical, legal jargon in these white papers to sound really cool like is because the hardest thing about anything in any industry when you’re communicating with people is that you want to sound smart and intelligent, but you also like you don’t want to seem like you don’t know what you’re talking about. So if you’re in this crypto blockchain space, you put in all these super technical words in the soup or whatever to make yourself sound like you know what’s going on. But if you can’t break it down to like to me or your normal person or someone that’s fresh in or whatever, we are never going to connect, and we’re never going to be able to get to that next step in moving forward together. And so that was really one of the things that resonated me when I first got into this and I really wanted to just one break that down and like start bridging the gap for all these thought leaders to be able to effectively communicate what they’re working on so that people can understand it and decide if they want to get behind it or at least share that project with other people.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I think you’re touching on a real you know point about communication right? And and I think there’s a couple sayings out there is a D want to be rich or do you want to be right? And in market in the marketing world that’s very common like and and I think this is a problem that smart people often have right? Is that especially when it comes to market Especially tech people. So I see this a lot around technical people that are smart. And I’ve been around a lot of smart tech people so I can I can see it. But what ends up happening is they want to market to people in a way that they feel is respectful. But basically, they want to be marketed in a way that they want to be sold personally. The problem is, is that really, really smart technical people are not the normal buyers out there in the world and, and how they want to be bought and sold is not correct. Or you know, how, you know, they want someone to sell something to them. And I think they make that mistake a lot and it gets them mad, like, I don’t want this, you know, and you hear this a lot like I mean, you’ve been around you’re around tech people all the time, right in your in your day job too. And as an entrepreneur, and and I have been as well. And so what I mean part of the problem is you see a lot of developers, they hate salespeople, they straight up hate them, right? And they’re like, oh, that guy is so full of crap or that guy is just bla bla bla bla bla and guess what some salespeople are full of crap, but but um but you also have Have to get people emotionally excited about your product or service. And sometimes it’s hard, right? tech stuffs not. I mean, if I was going to try to sell you visa, right? how sexy is that? It’s not, it’s just not, you know, and and it’s the same thing with crypto for the most part, crypto is not sexy, it shouldn’t be sexy. If you think about it, it shouldn’t be. It should be utilitarian. And I think that a lot of us miss that. That communication piece. And I think that, you know, hopefully more projects like what we’re doing and podcasts like what you and I are doing will help change that over time.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
No doubt, and it’s been interesting over the, over the years I’ve been doing this as well with some of the earlier guests that I’ve gone on versus some of the newer ones and just understanding also the flow of conversation of sometimes when people come on, they know their product or project and everything extremely well or they know a certain aspect of it. Something like a like defy or stable coins or accounting on the blockchain or what does it mean to do a fork on whatever and like they can go really, really deep and be very, like technical and very knowledgeable on the subject but what people want to hear what people resonate his passion is, is the that human element of like when you speak about a thing? Does it like excite you? Like why should I be excited about when you’re speaking to me about this thing? And what I’ve learned is to try to bring that out of people when they’re speaking because I Can I have that that level of connection with you to where now when we’re speaking I’m locked in like I want to hear what this person has to say next, because I can feel the energy coming from what they’re what they’re talking about, because you can you can listen to very, very, very high in the sky. conversations that you know, like are probably highlight intelligent and are solving a problem. And you’re like, wow, these people are super smart, but like I just have, they’re they’re speaking French. They’re speaking Japanese. I was like, What am I doing here? Because like one of the first conferences I ever went to, like, some of the conversations even on the stages, I was just like, how do I even get involved in this space, like if they’re speaking a foreign language right now. And as you can start peeling back those layers, and and just getting people to break things down at their base, because a lot of projects in these developers as well, they can speak to the technical piece of it, but they can’t at face value. I say, Tell me, like in a 10 second pitch, what is your product product? What do you do? Who’s your ideal customer and a lot of them through our conversations over their head, it’s just like, a they start to freeze because they’ve never just broke it down. So simply and it’s, it’s amazing how when you just simplify things, how much more easily In freely, you can speak about something and get more people to buy in.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And here’s the downside of that. And I think this is all part of it, the simpler you can refine it, the easier it is to critique. And I think some people fear that, you know, like, let’s just, you know, I could pick apart You know, I pick on defy stuff sometimes. Right. And, and because I think there’s some, I have some concerns about some of the defy stuff, but you’re like, you know, you know, some of these these schemes, you know, like yield farming some of these other things. They’re so complicated, like, in effect, the developers themselves have a hard time explaining what they’re doing. And I’m like, so you created so you created a token out of nothing. Somebody else gives you this token, and you hold it and then they you give them this other token, and they cash it out and just trying to explain you’re like, and then I just come back and like, and and I always I like I said, I like to be the dumb guy. And I have no trust me. There’s I surround myself with dumb or smart people. I’m the dumb guy around everyone. I want to be that guy. And, and I was like, okay, so who in the real world does this? Like outside of crypto? Can you give me examples of where this is? Or this exists this model that you’re creating? Right? And they’re like, Oh, well, you know, no, I don’t explain to me Give me an example. Is there a bank that I do this at? And, and it’s funny the, how quickly some of those, you know, these really complicated schemes break down, when you ask these really basic questions. And I always take that as a red flag, right, because I’m a simple guy. And, and, and, and there’s a fundamental reason for this. The even with language, okay, I’ll divert like a little story. So, you know, authors. If you look at some of the most successful books in the world in history, like in literature in history, what you’ll find is there’s been some studies done on some of the most, some of the most successful books in history, were written at very low levels of education levels, and so meaning that the vote capillary Just think of it this way, the more popular books use smaller words, more common words for things. I saw thing and I it was like Ernest Hemingway’s old man in the sea was written in like a fourth grade level. Yeah. And, and no most people will be offended by that if you say that but there’s a very practical reason for that. The the simpler the the understanding required or the the lower the education level required for someone to enjoy your work as an author as your book. The more people the bigger the market there is for that book. So if you write a book that only people with PhDs in biochemistry can understand your market is limited to people that have an understanding of biochemistry that also want to read your book. It makes the market smaller. And so I always think of I go back to market sizes, okay, I always try to bring things back down how many so help me understand what problem you’re solving and then How many people can you potentially solve that problem for? And then how do you get that solution to those people’s problems in front of them? And you would see a lot of times, even with crypto, a lot of the stuff breaks down. I remember and things are changing in this industry. But I remember when I went to my first, the first Miami blockchain conference I went to a couple years ago, that was like January or February in 2018, right, right. After I got into crypto, I went to that conference. And I was very new to crypto. And I’m still suspicious of crypto but I you know, some of the stuff in crypto but I was going and talking to all these projects. And we’d already had a product started to but I started saying like, well, we’re doing this, this and this and I’m like, so you’re making Uber so basically someone was making a blockchain based Uber, right. And I said, Okay, that’s interesting. What do you do differently? Well, we don’t take as high of a fee. Okay, but what do you But okay, so Uber takes a high fee. Yeah. So explain to me Do you not don’t think Uber offers value to their drivers? Or to their customers? You know, because they wanted to, they basically make a decentralized Uber thing. I’m not gonna say who it was. But and it’s funny because I was talking to the developers on this, and they couldn’t answer basic questions, they had not like thought out the business piece of this, like, they hadn’t talked to their customers, or potential customers for this. And I just said, I don’t understand the market, like what problem you’re trying to solve other than a little lower fee, but you’re also offering a lot less support, and you’re not offering any marketing and, and so and to me, I saw that as a big drawback, and I think this is the problem with a lot of these tech people is that they’re missing that whole understanding what’s happening on the other side.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
And this is what’s interesting about what is going on in this space right now. And where I think this next decade of where we’re headed in the crypto blockchain space is very exciting. So you have a lot of these projects, who basically went through initial boom, and if they’re still around, basically they’re trying to build some To last right and so now you’re starting get these projects are a little bit more funded. And if they’re not a little bit more funded, they have a little bit more well rounded groups and team that is building it and you’re starting to get like more marketing and sales focused people to get in it to figure out the business model of like, how do we become sustainable? And then with that what you’re seeing is more people trying to figure out adoption. So what is the biggest hurdle for any new person coming into crypto and blockchain space, right? The first one is just basic understanding of what is Bitcoin? What drives its value? Like, what are the five pillars? Like what are the what are the things that make it distinct, right? What gives it its value and then blockchain the underlying technology, like, what is it like just give me those two basics right, and after you break that down, and they can understand that at its core, it’s like, Okay, if I’m going to use this in my everyday like life, you don’t necessarily need to know that. You just need to know that it works. So like right now. I don’t like necessarily need to understand like how it all works on the back end, when I go to a gas station and I put my visa in, I get my gas and I dip out I don’t need to know the technology and everything that’s going on the back end. It works. And what I think a lot of projects are finally starting to put their attention towards is, how do I just get this to work without the user having to understand everything that’s going on. And right now that is the absolute hurdle for anybody new in the crypto space is you need someone to hold your hand to get started. Basically point blank period like you, you are going to have to educate yourself a little bit. There’s nothing intuitive about coming into this space right now. Like when you think about Apple and what made them so successful, especially with the iPhone boom and everything else is you can pick up this phone, not know anything about a phone and clearly understand how to use it right? Grandma, you can give grandma an iPhone, she’ll figure out how to communicate and do everything that she needs to with crypto right now. It’s not grandma. It’s not grandma proof. It is not. It is not millennial proof like you’re not going to get someone just My age or younger, that’s gonna come on initially in the crypto space and just know what’s going on. They’re gonna have to watch some videos, listen to some speakers do whatever to get started. And the one of the points that I really want to drive home right now you’re like communicating this to your potential companies or your projects or whatever that whatever you’re working on right in your business, you just need to be able to be thoughtful in your communication and what is your value proposition? And like, how do you get this to more people? And how can anyone come on in use it without you having to hold their hand? Yes, initially, right? Now, you’re gonna have to hold your hand and that’s fine. People understand, like, that’s the friction that’s there right now. But if you can do it a little bit cooler or a little, like you’re a little bit more friendly, or whatever that like, extra, whatever that you do to like, make me feel comfortable and confident when I’m trying your thing. That’s what’s gonna separate you right now. But of course, as this continues to come on, if I hand you this thing, and I can just use it without you having explained anything you’ve won, and I think you The companies that are building that right now, oh my gosh, whenever like mass adoption truly does eventually come, you’re going to just moon because you’ve already built that infrastructure. And so it’s been really interesting to talk to some of the different types of people in this space, who do have that in mind into just how they communicate. It’s just different.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, let’s, let’s take it back. Like I liken it to command line interface, right? Like, if you go through and people are like, Oh, well, you know, I always say, you know, I’m sorry, you’re not I this is what I say, and people get pissy, but I say, Look, you’re not gonna get mass adoption without mass marketing. And I’m old enough to remember when the World Wide Web came to being and became popular. And, you know, I’m old enough to remember that AOL was the probably one of the biggest drivers of mass adoption of email on the internet. And that was because they sent out millions and millions and millions of CDs that were easy for people to use and get on for free and there you go. And, and there’s a No analog yet for crypto to do that. And abstraction, what you’re talking about is we need good abstraction. And really, this shouldn’t be complicated. There is some complications from getting apps into the App Store, right? Like, well, the wallets and things like that. But for the most part, it shouldn’t be that complicated. This stuff is not that complicated. It shouldn’t be. But it still is. And, and I, you know, I do appreciate that, for instance, recently that the banks are now allowed to do custody of assets. And I’ve heard a lot of people on the DS that are really pro decentralization get pissy about it. And I said to me, banks being allowed to custody, you know, virtual assets is probably one of the most bullish things I’ve heard. And this is why people I don’t think most people are comfortable with or responsible enough to have their entire 401k savings, life savings and have the keys for that where they could lose their keys and lose that. I don’t think most people want that. And I don’t think most people can handle that responsibility to be honest. And and I’m not picking on people but I I’ve seen developers lose their keys and lose hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of crypto. Just in my own circle. Like I’ve seen I’ve known two developers who lose their keys for wallets one from a technical crash one from just not, you know, trying to play some games and doing some other stupid stuff. And and I just don’t believe I mean, if you think about it, it’s one thing you got a $5 free wallet paper wall from somebody right? And you lose Who cares? But can you think imagine this? Imagine someone who’s worked 30 years and saved up a half million dollars in their 401k or IRA or a million dollars right? And now they’re they moved it all to a self directed IRA, then put it all into crypto and they lose their keys. Think about that. Don’t tell me that’s not going to happen either. Because I’ve seen it happen. I know someone that’s lost over $200,000 because he lost his keys doing something stupid.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Oh, I’ve heard of a business right now that’s getting like put up and like that’s all they focus on. Right. It’s like custody just to make sure like having like lawyers Stuff put in place to like, and like, what happens if you die like let’s say you set all this up and like you don’t have like a second key that you’ve put in like a peel box somewhere that’s just chillin. So if with certain instructions like on my death, here’s my key go reveal this liquidate immediately give it to so blah, blah blah like some people aren’t even thinking that far ahead and like that’s like to truly like if you’re going to set this up like as a asset that you’re hedging against whatever and like just a long term play. Those are the kinds of like things down the road you got to think about, and I think a lot of people aren’t, and it’s necessary, and we’re not there yet. Right. So from a separate thing that I think is going on in the crypto space that is starting to evolve more is the operational piece of it. And I use this reference multiple multiple times in my pockets, and I’m going to use it here. And for the last 10 years for the first decade. There’s a bunch of violence being built right Island over here. Hey, I’ve had the best stablecoin come play with me. Hey, this one over here. I’m the best blockchain that you can build all your crypto on top of come play with me over here, hey, I have the best defy company ever, you should come over here. And right now what we need aren’t an another island, we need bridges. We need bridges that are here that are connecting all of these really cool projects so that they all play together. So I don’t need to go play on these different islands, I can come to this interface. And just keep on writing the bridge all the way around so that everything works. And from the operational piece, whoever’s able to figure that out and do it in a very, very clean, effective and friendly way. I think they are going to just lead the charge for everything that come right. So like, for example for right now a lot of people that initially come into the crypto space, most of them go through Coinbase like calm it is what it is. A lot of them are going through Coinbase and if Coinbase were to start allowing options, so that with any and everything that you want to do, you can purely do it from that platform. They have their foot in the door and can just blow things open but right now like Like, I’m sure that’s something on their roadmap, but like, there are a ton of other products that are kind of trying to do it. But again, it’s still so early, we are so early, like, everything in this in these opportunities right now is if you can build the groundwork right now, and like have that focus in mind, like you’re looking at the next 10 to 20 years of what you’re trying to build. You can like not just dominate the space but you can make something so powerful, that is international and limitless, right, like and a lot of projects where people build they build it for our country, or they build it for a certain area. This has no limits and like that is what is one quick story what made me like all in what made me come all in to crypto without my turning point. I had a friend who works in oil and gas and he worked in the Philippines. And he when he got paid he was sent his money back to his family in California but when it happened, between trading fees and time He lose 40% from going from the Philippine money to US dollars and then doing the wire transfers and everything else in fees and all that 40% of his money gone just instantly no take I think like seven business days, he didn’t started just switching everything to Bitcoin and sending it and it would take a couple of minutes and it only cost a couple dollars. I was like I’m so that makes so much sense to me that is that that makes you’ll need some anything else like I’m in I need to learn more. And I think as there’s there’s so many use cases like that where people are using cryptocurrency and blockchain applications like it that as it becomes easier to use and see those international use cases, like again, the sky is the limit.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, I think remittances are really a huge opportunity. But it’s gonna take some time. I mean, I saw this I was living in Europe briefly in the 90s. And it was interesting because we already had while dial up was the you know, the big thing there and we were just Starting to get cable modems, right? It was Ty speed was just limited at that point in the late 90s. And I thought it was interesting though, but cell phones are very less common. But in Europe where I was, they didn’t have landlines. They everyone had a landline. But they didn’t have data lines, but their cell phone usage, their mobile phone usage jumped. They leapfrog the United States. So in the late 90s, you know, everybody had a mobile phone where I was versus in the states they didn’t and I think you’re gonna see that with like blockchain, right? Because blockchain does, again outside of Western countries. I think right now blockchain solves a lot of problems more so for people, you have different regulations, different taxing pieces to it. It does end a lot of friction. And I think, unfortunately, I think the US has hamstringing itself from a regulatory standpoint and and since we don’t have as big of a problem, I think we’re gonna lag in the United States from crypto Animation, which I don’t think is a good thing, overall, but, you know, I can see that and you saw that with, you know, the World Wide Web, too. We were We were early, but other people because of mobile devices, you know, they got some much more advanced on the mobile phone infrastructure than we did. And so I think it’s interesting. And I think the united states need to figure this out. Where do do we want to be? Do we want to be a really competitive player on a global level? Or do we not? And then on the developer side, dude, you know, you got to get out of the mindset of Linux desktop, right, you know, Command Line Interface people, let’s just be honest, you know, Windows one that game for a reason. You know, I like Linux. Don’t get me wrong. I have a Linux laptop. And so I understand command line stuff. But I started on dos. But you know, but they honestly you’re not going to get mass adoption of command line interface. It’s just not going to happen. Right? It’s just too much overhead and baggage. And I don’t think all everybody thinks like that unless pianist command line interface. This is really similar to crypto, right? It’s not forgiving, you make one mistake. So for instance, think of it this way command line interface, right? You make one space wrong, one minus sign wrong one exclamation point wrong, it won’t work. I type in a browser like gibberish, and it pulls up the things that I thought it knew intuitively, what I was looking for, I can’t type for the life of me on these little keyboards. So I’m always got like ABC, gx, you know, whatever. And the abstraction figures out what I was trying to find and gives me, you know, suggestions. You don’t have that command line interface. And until crypto starts thinking like that, and there’s more to it intuitive for the everyday person, you’re not going to get everyday users. And to me, I think you’re right, we have to really work on the abstraction, I know is working on our project. Trust me, I am 100% behind you, but we’ve got to get the developers out right if we got to get more people working and helping us build that because I certainly want that I see it. I don’t have the manpower To build everything I want to build, like right now or yesterday, but I do agree that I think the projects that are really end user focus, they’re not only trying to solve a problem, but they’re trying to solve a problem in a very convenient, easy way for a big market. I think ultimately, you’re right. The projects that do that the crypto projects that end up doing that successfully. I believe one, they’re going to be very successful financially, but I think also they’re going to change the way crypto products are evaluated in the market. Yeah. So you know, a lot of projects that right now in crypto are just speculative assets, right. People are hoping they’re going to land and hoping they’re going to get mass adoption. But I think the ones that do are going to definitely be the first ones that make that happen. I think we’re in I think we’re in an arms race, so to speak.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Yeah, think about it. even speak to that real quick. Just a quick point. When you first came up with cryptocurrencies Bitcoin was odd, right? But then a theorem came in shook up the whole playing field, right. It’s like oh, like and when I think About like cryptocurrency itself like some cryptocurrencies aren’t cryptocurrencies, they are platforms or there’s something to be built upon, but they are under the umbrella of cryptocurrencies, like at the end of the day most of these quote unquote cryptocurrency projects out there are startups and, and with most startups in anything out there 90% of them fail, period. But that five to 10 that survive, crush it, and not go ahead.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I’m sorry, I was just coughing a little bit.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
I was just, not only do they like crush it, like, they build something in such a way that changes the dynamic of where the future is headed. So why like a theorem it made a lot of developers come on and understand like, oh, here’s all of these different use cases. Oh, we have smart contracts, things that can be permissionless and do whatever like, oh, like there’s so many use cases. Let me try to go build out this certain aspect of it. Um, when you look at some of the products that are coming on, and I, I do this comparison and I’m sure a lot of others Do the comparison as well as the internet, like initial internet, how it all came out how was all forming and forming it with with crypto and when you look at when the internet first came out, and all of this money just flooded the market and everyone was trying to become a web company. They all didn’t make it. But the ones that did the Amazons, the Google’s the the AOL, like AOL came out and was crushing it. Everybody knew AOL. But AOL didn’t ultimately make it. But because of AOL, you had innovation that was created around it to make everything after it that much better. You have these early movies, the early adopters that built really great infrastructure for that time, and it is great and it works for that moment. But if they’re not constantly innovating and adapting with the times, then they don’t ultimately make it and what I think is happening right now are happening with again, going back to initial Ico boom, a lot of these cryptocurrencies came out that we’re trying to solve a thing for this immediate moment for warrant trying to survive. And I think there’s a lot more products out there that are building to survive. And the ones that do, I think are going to be spectacular. So I just, I just want to like, really harp on the idea that some of these crypto projects that are coming are learning from other mistakes and are saying like, hmm, they did all of these things, right. But here’s something they did wrong, let me make it that much better. And like, here’s, boom, here’s this new project and like, you know, it works and like, are getting to a point now, where the tech is, the technical debt is being paid by a lot of these first movers and you know, that’s just part of the game. But it’s allowing these newer companies that are coming in or even the companies that are there that are are looking at what’s going on around them, and adapting and allowing them to build and move so much faster. And I think you for it for everyone listening your audience. One of the things to always keep in mind and something that I’ve kind of pulled from a lot of the guests that come on my show it’s As you continue to work in build, and you’re listening to your your customer and everything else is, what can I do? or What did they tell me that if I had to go back and show them my product that I shouldn’t have to explain, like, if they asked me a question about these things like I, in my head, this all made sense. And like, I’m surprised they asked me that question, like, think back on your conversations and think, hmm, why do they? Why do they even ask me that question? I thought that was very obvious. And if the answer is Oh, that’s not very obvious. That is where your attention probably needs to be. And I think that’s been like a really cool, just just lesson that I’ve learned over time.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, think about this way. Well, you know, the original way you got on the internet for the most part was dial up, right. And those of us that struggle, you know, back in the dark ages back in the early days in the 90s. We would never want to go back to that. Right and having a Deal with mom picks up the phone and get kicked off the line Mom I’m on blame boo game, you know, stuff like that. But if they’re good stories to tell now but it really it was it was it really was clunky It was hard. I mean if you had to think about like back then like you had to turn on the computer and boot and then you had to open up your, your modem window and then dial the number and make sure your username and password were I mean, now you just turn on the computer works. You don’t even think about that. You don’t even think about the connection. And now you know, we have the wireless you know, everything is wireless now, right and Wi Fi and that was a whole other job like, Oh, I don’t have to sit in my my computer room now to play on the computer. I can sit in the living room and you know, live tweet Netflix or something. Right? I mean, things are very different now, even than it was 2030 years ago. And and you know, I think I try to think about the future as well. And when we’re designing Tosca and working and building this out You know, we’ve heard this a lot of times, for instance, as a project, well, why aren’t you a stable coin? I don’t know if you hear that a lot. And but and I said, we don’t want to be a stable coin. And they and people give me a hard time and I say, look, most stable coins are pegged to a fiat currency. And I can tell you, and we thought this two years ago, and I think it even more Now, can you imagine being attacked, having the value of your project controlled by a fiat currency like the US dollar in 10 years? Tell me what’s going to happen to the dollar in the next 10 years. I don’t know what’s going to happen to the dollar in the next 10 years, but I have a good indication that they’re printing so much money right now. And that rate of printing is just only increasing will eventually drive that fiat currency to oblivion. I’m pretty comfortable in saying that I don’t have a timeline. But I would say there’s a higher it’ll catch up. And and I’m not building something for a week. I’m not building something for a year. I’m building something that Maybe here in 50 years, you know, that’s the goal, right? You don’t build a, you know, who builds a money that’s gonna be gone in 10 years, right? You got to build something’s gonna last hundreds of years, right? I mean, that’s at least in my mind, that’s what I’m trying to

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Build the currency.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And and so so why would I build something on a foundation one I don’t control two that’s recklessly being printed and devalued debased. And so that’s why I don’t want to be a fiat currency. I want our currency to get dropped out, you know, and I also believe, if you look at what was the point why did why do people build stable coins? Right? Answer that.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
The stable coins to mean volatility to make sure you could hedge against volatility that’s going on to make sure that at that time, if your Bitcoin was $10,000, and Allison’s target was going down, you could at least save that value and you could buy back in at a lower but to maintain value,

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Stability. Exactly. So the question is, how come cryptocurrencies are so volatile Why not solve that problem? And there’s a very simple reason for that. Why is the US dollar not volatile? For the most part, it’s the most stable fiat currency on the planet right now, right? Why is it not volatile? And it’s a simple answer, because people are using it every day for buying and selling. However, if people only use the dollar for speculation, it would be very volatile. So how do you solve the volatility issue? You create utility, and you get adoption. And over time, it will absolutely stabilize itself and be consistent and hold its value. And so if your project or a project that you like that you’re investing in, does not have a strategy to get people to really use it. It will probably always be a speculative asset only. And it’s going to be volatile. So to us, I yeah, we’re going to be volatile probably for the next two or three years as we grow. But we expect that with tops that we knew this, we knew that was a risk. And we are we have some strategies to Deal with at least early on with the retailers that we’re talking to, which involves things like, you know, atomic swaps and, you know, you know, cashing out right away. So you’re not sitting on it if you don’t want to. But we deliberately wanted to stay away from being a stable coin. And and we felt that for the long term, it was a bad strategy short term, it might be fine. Long term, I don’t think it’s a good idea. And so because you don’t control the underlying value at that point, I would much rather are the people in our community or essentially think about are controlling the value? So who’s better if you’re a project right? Who’s Who should be controlling the value some government agent somewhere or someone in a treasury department at some fiat currency or some bank control the value of your asset or should the people that use it control the value of the asset and to me and to our you know, our group and our team we felt that having the market in our community determine the value is probably the safest way long term.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
I mean the the market the people The community who are using it should be driving the value. Like if you think about what makes the stock market, the stock market, it is perceived value it is supply and demand. And it’s very interesting. When you think about like, stable coins and I was having a conversation about this earlier today. It can go one of two ways, right? And right now there’s a lot of demand for it. There’s a lot of money being fed into it. I think it’s basically expanding to like a $10 billion industry right now. And it’s continuing to grow. There’s a lot of liquidity that’s starting to enter that market. However, depending on what that is pegged to. Even your quote, unquote, stable coin eventually could become volatile. Depending on like, what is your underlying thing that it’s that you’re pegging? So, in a lot of ways, yes, there’s utility to it. It’s, it’s practical, it can be useful, but at the same time to, you’re still always going to be at some sort of risk right? And for a lot of these, for example, like with TUSC, and what you have going on, I do think that by just keeping it the the value of what you’re doing, it should be driven by supply demand and everyone who is using it. So yeah, I would just, I agree with that.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, it’s gonna be definitely interesting to say with, you know, see where things go and in the next couple of years, and, and I think we’re going the right direction with our project, but we’ll see if the market agrees with what we’re doing. And I think, but I think we will be, I’m pretty confident of that. But I think, you know, ultimately, you know, pegging the value of what you’re doing to something else as somebody else control. I just don’t think that’s just doesn’t make sense to me. But, but again, I think a lot of people created those stable coins as a band aid, because and so instead of, you know, creating adoption, and focusing your efforts on truly getting adoption, they spent their time creating a bandaid instead of Solving the underlying problem is that, you know, cryptocurrencies haven’t been adopted yet by the masses. In fact, I would argue they haven’t even been adopted by very many niche markets either. You know, right now, you know, even Bitcoin and i and i own Bitcoin or aetherium. In my own portfolio, I’m not anti any project other than a scam. I don’t like scams, but I’m not anti projects. But I also see limitations in projects. I even see limitations in our own projects. I know where I know where what’s ugly, I know where the words are in our project, too. But if you can’t identify and be open and honest, where there’s a problem or where there’s a, you know, an obstacle that needs to be corrected, or you know, overcome, you’re never going to innovate. And that’s the thing. And I think the problem with a lot of people, especially the Maxis and the different communities, is that they’re so sensitive to any kind of criticism that they feel that their product is above criticism, and then they get really angry about it. But the fact is, if you can’t point out where there’s a problem, how are you ever going to innovate. You know, if you You can identify those issues and I think that and I think that’s natural people get tribal when they wrap their personal identity around something. I think that’s also dangerous. You know? Can you imagine if there were like visa Maxis? You’re like you MasterCard people are bastards visas to real money you know? I mean think about how silly that sounds right? Right. But isn’t that what we’re little sized how, like, Ark..

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
But think about like, like the PayPal guys are like fighting the Venmo guys on the corner right? I mean think about how ridiculous that sounds this little thought exercise, but that’s what they’re doing in crypto right? It’s like everybody’s got their team jersey on and they got to go to Mass on Sunday pray to the Bitcoin gods and and you know, immaculate conception and all this I mean it really does have elements of you know, it’s not only tribal, but it does have elements of religion. You know, and Satoshi we trust and I’m not like I said, I’m, to me, it’s technology. And it’s software and it has bugs and the people involved have personalities and flaws. And ultimately, the most successful ones may not be the best technology. You know, I’m old enough to remember man, I’m really old now, but I’m old enough to remember VHS and Betamax. I’m that old. And you know what the best technology at that time? Didn’t when the best marketed technology one

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Yes, it did. And oh my gosh, I mean, I did case studies on this back in college and it still holds true just posted the the best tech doesn’t win the best marketing does. And again, I’m gonna say this again, the best technology doesn’t win. The best marketing does. If you think about some of the things that we use every day. It has everything to do with marketing and how it was positioned in like why they made you think a certain way, like the whole concept of like buying a diamond ring for somebody that you’re supposed to use a certain fraction Have your salary and like that’s how much you’re supposed to spend was a marketing ploy by company like they put that in our brains like, however use like the fact that smoking like the reason that smoking became very popular was that the the cigarettes company put marketing ploys out there to show how cool it was at all points like everything and just not to go too far into like the whole marketing piece. But again, like podcaster, that talks to a bunch of crypto and blockchain projects all the time and everything going on, learn to think that they a thing or two, and one of them in the importance of communication and put it out there is that marketing and putting your brand in front of as many eyes as possible and making sure that your story is resonating with people the way that you want it to and in a way that is received from your ideal customer is so crucial. And if you’re not spending time on that right now, I want to challenge you right now if you’re listening to this, and you can Like gut check, I’m not doing this, do it like this should be your focus for the next month, like, figure out how you can get that concise story together to communicate that with others, and just test it. But it’s great to build great tech, it is great to build something that is useful. I’m not going to ever take away from that. But if you can’t communicate it, and if you cannot put it in front of a ton of people, and they can understand it, and then not only understand it take action, like if you can’t, even if you’re thinking it’s the greatest thing ever. And you tell someone and they won’t act on it, and you have failed. And like I know that might sound really harsh and like really like who is this guy but like trust me, you could be putting all your effort and energy creating the best thing ever. But if you do not know how to communicate that and do not know how to put that in front of others, you are failing and that needs to be a focus and that is something that you need to Be refiguring out and putting out there and it’s never too late. You can start right now. And I just really want to just emphasize the importance of we are in a new space where everything is hard. Everything is challenging. And any initial conversation that you have with a non crypto blockchain person, like right now, you probably already know this and feel this. You try to talk to anybody that is not in this immediate world and circle. You trying to pitch it is really hard, and they don’t get it. But if you get to a point to where you can talk to anybody on the street and explain what you do, very simply, and they’re like, Oh, that sounds pretty cool. You’ve won. And so if you can’t, like internalize and like can can tell me that. I want to tell you again right now to go focus and figure that out.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I can’t agree more with you, Richard. I mean, it’s true. And I think the unicorn is the combination right, is that you get both pieces, right? You get the best tech and the best marketing. That’s where your Steve Jobs and Apple come from. That’s where Elan musk and your customers come from. You have really, really good products, really good innovation that people really want. And you have the right amount of hype to grow it, you need both. You could have a Tesla, I used to work in the auto industry in Detroit and from Michigan originally. And there’s plenty of great cars that’ll probably come out to the market that are going to be better than Tesla’s, I guarantee it, they will be. I mean, there’s too many people going into that space. And once the US auto industry and the Japanese auto industries decided they’re going to go into a space they really dive in, they’re not going to come to the market with one line or one model, they’re going to come with 10. And guess what, in a couple of years, they’ll figure it out. Right? they’ll they’ll figure out really good tech, and they’ll figure out a way how to manufacture it cheaper. But the question is, you know, ultimately, you know, Tesla is really good at hype. I mean, the Who do you even know who the CEO CEO of Ford is? Or the, you know, the CEO name of Toyota? No, no, but you know, you know, the CEO of Tesla is right.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Everybody knows Elon.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, you know, the CEO of Apple, the old one, even the new one, right? Cook, the old one, you know, jobs, everybody knows them. Right? You don’t have those kind of personalities in those organizations in like the, you know, the other auto industries that have that kind of marketing in that hype, like you do. Tesla’s and and so I think, you know, I think that’s important to understand. And I think that any crypto project or AI project or any emergency or emerging technology project, you have to, you know, you have to have a good product, no doubt. And you have to understand that you have to have a good product, but you also have to be able to have not only the ability to put that in front of people, but you have to have, you know, someone that has a strategy to put it in how are you going to put it in front of people and that has to be thought about just as much if not more so within the technology part of it. And I and that pisses off developers, when You say that, trust me, I’ve gone round and round with them. And trust me, every time I open my mouth and my developers wins. I’m like, Guys, I got an idea. Because I do have a lot of ideas, you know, because I’m out there. You know, our developers typically, you know, our heads down, they’re pretty most of the team is introverted, right. I’m like the guy with the big mouth. And, and, you know, I’m out. But I’m also the one talking to people like you and talking to other projects. That’s the beauty of what I’m doing with my podcast is I get to talk to other projects and see what they’re doing. Right. And I’m like, Oh, that’s a really good idea. We should do that too. Or do it better than what you’re doing. But you have to have both. But Richard, we’re getting pretty close on time. Before we run, can you tell people how they can get a hold of you and hear what you have to say on your show?

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Absolutely. So if you go to crypto-current.co that is our website. That’s CR y PTO, hyphen, current, c u r r e n t.co. Go check out our website. sight. I’ve got plenty of content educational content out there. We have our podcasts that comes out weekly, sometimes bi weekly. We have videos that we have coming out as well. educational videos on there. We have a newsletter that goes out every single day Monday through Friday part of artificial intelligence that’d be really cool to go and get a part of and then on all social media if you just type in cryptocurrency, you’re gonna be able to find this no problem. And we are always looking for it really cool projects and people who are working on cool things I would like to share with the audience. If so, feel free to reach out to me through cryptocurrency or you can also find me on social media on Richard Carlton. I think probably the one of the easier ways is probably my Instagram so Richard underscore carth on that CA, th o n. You can find me there and I’m happy to speak in and I enjoy speaking with people who are passionate and working on something in the crypto and blockchain space that are looking need to make a difference. So if that’s you, please hit me up. I’m happy to follow up with you.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Richard, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I’ve really enjoyed our time today.

Richard Carthon – crypto-current.co
Absolutely appreciate you having me Rob.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey, this has been Rob McNealy, and we’re gonna have all his socials and stuff linked up at Rob McNealy calm. Make sure if you haven’t subscribed mass has subscribed by button so you can get more content like this and many more interviews are coming. I am Rob McNealy, do you have a great day. Thank you, folks.

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Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip Bitcoin Transcript

Daniel Polotsky - CoinFlip Bitcoin ATM

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 0:01
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today we are talking to the CEO of CoinFlip ATM is named Daniel Polotsky. Daniel, how are you today?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 0:10
I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me really quite

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 0:14
well I’m really glad you have time to come on on the show. I know it’s been really hard to like with your schedule my schedule lately to connect so I’m glad we’re finally able to do it. But I think that’s a lot you know, due to the fact that you guys are growing kind of like weeds right now. out there. So let’s just jump into that. So tell me a little bit about what is CoinFlip ATM.

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 0:36
I mean CoinFlip is I like to say the world’s largest Bitcoin ATM network by volume. We have close to 800 Bitcoin ATM locations we’re growing at you know, we’re trying to put down 20 to 25 ATMs per week. You know, we’re trying to hopefully move into other region like we’re all already in almost all 50 states. There’s a few left to go on. We want to maybe even make it out to like you know other countries as well like more in the distant future and you know we’re kind of also just trying to be an easy way for people to obtain Bitcoin like the easiest possible way you know to get in get out, get your Bitcoin convenient can speak to somebody 24 seven you know kind of like the old fashioned way you know, it’s like very hard to like even like companies like Uber these days, you know, like they don’t have 24 seven customer service where you can like call someone and they can like pick up. So we try to have that we try to make we understand that Bitcoin is hard to understand for a lot of people and we want to make it as easy and friendly as possible. So that’s what we’re about to do. We’re trying to get Bitcoin as many hands as possible. And we also have like, other options do that now to like we do credit cards online, and we also have coin flip preferred, which we recently launched, which is like a wire transfer service, and you get the Bitcoin same day you get to talk to a person in real life and like we’re just really about all about that experience to try to make Bitcoin as friendly as possible.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 2:07
So when did you guys launch the company?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 2:10
On the company’s launched in 2015? Um, so we probably been around Yeah. So five years.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 2:19
Did you guys bootstrap or do you guys get investors?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 2:22
Yeah, I’ve never we’ve never gotten any outside funding. It’s been pretty crazy. So like, Yeah, I don’t know. I didn’t expect that to be the case. But that is how it worked out. Like you know, that obviously was a popular service. I kind of like you know, the beginning you know, just kind of like put down one ATM and then you know, once it made some money, you know, I like put down another like, I didn’t like, swing for the fences immediately. I want to make sure it was something that works. Because like, you know, I’m like, I am like, you know, like a dreamer or whatever, like entrepreneur, but I’m also like, kind of risk averse, even though like, obviously do take risks, but like, you know, it I want to I want to hit singles rather than homeruns put it that way.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 3:04
Well, I think that you actually just illustrated something that’s real important about entrepreneurs and I’m an entrepreneur, I’ve been around entrepreneurs for a long time, is that I think there’s this like misinformation out there, right? everybody’s like, Oh, I could never be an entrepreneur because of the risks. And I’m just like, you know, I think you got a backwards I personally think that employees actually have more risk than entrepreneurs do. And it’s kind of I think they got a backwards because when you’re an entrepreneur, right, you will, you really are kind of risk adverse, but what that means is least as far as I see it, is that you’re going out and you’re going to take very determined well thought out risks, not haphazard ones, whereas in and you have all the information whereas I think a lot of like employees, you know, they don’t know what condition the companies in they don’t No, you know if they’re gonna get laid off tomorrow, because we’re patient, right? And me, I think that’s way more risky because you don’t know because then your boss is let’s be honest, right? You know, if you’re going to go under the bosses are going to tell you like last thing

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 4:19
Because they want you to give a family whatever what have you, you need to like, adapt quick like it’s not it’s not a you know, yeah,

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 4:27
It’s not and and I’ve been an entrepreneur for a long time and and it’s funny because like I’m like people like oh, you must have so much risk and I’m like, it’s not about being risky, right? It’s about yes, we do take risks, but they’re incredibly calculated risks.

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 4:43
And they’re short, you know, like, you don’t have to, like, you don’t have to buy, you know, like, you don’t have to nessus like, for example, in my case, you don’t have to, but you don’t have to necessarily raise $3 million and buy 200 machines only to find out it doesn’t work. Like you know, just like put down one machine Find out this is kind of like not really going anywhere. No one’s really picking up on it, maybe like, stick it out for a bit, obviously don’t quit right away, but like, on a small scale doesn’t work, then you haven’t thrown away, you know, millions of dollars, which I guess is easier in today’s society because there’s like a lot of venture funding available and what have you, but still.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 5:21
Oh, well, well, you know that I don’t understand it. Because, you know, I’m old. So I mean, I’m almost 50 now. And I’ve been a self sufficient..

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 5:30
I thought you were 40.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 5:32
I’m 48. I just turned 48 a couple of months ago. Yeah. Thanks. It’s, it’s crazy. Yeah, I got married 20 years for kids. So I’m all fart. But I’ve been a self sufficient entrepreneur for 15 years, meaning that I’ve been able to fully make a living as an entrepreneur for 15 years. But I’ve been an entrepreneur probably for 10 years past that, you know, like who are you try something and fail and I find like the same way right you test and I always call doing it. diligence, where I like I as I’m a serial entrepreneur, so it’s like, I get ideas all the time. And I think you probably are like that too. Because most entrepreneurs I know, the longer they’re an entrepreneur, the more ideas and business ideas pop in their head. And I found the hard part is picking the right ones route that there is an idea but that you got to choose and you got to go through…

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 6:23
You gotta follow through with what you’re gonna do.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 6:24
Yeah, and that’s what you’re gonna execute on. And to me, it’s like, you know, I’ve looked at probably, of all the things that I’ve done, I’ve probably times that by five gone through, like what I call a diligence process where I’m seriously interested in a business or an idea and I start exploring it and they start look, delving into the market and I had this happen, actually, just before we did started. OCC and TUSC. Our little crypto project is I had this idea in the space. It was like a gig economy kind of thing. And I went down for six months researching the market looking at all the attempts that had failed. And before that, you know, people tried to go into it. And I eventually even I was really excited about it. And I had a team where we went to the point where we’re starting to put a team together. And at the very last minute, I told the guys that go, we shouldn’t do it. Like, yeah. And it was a good idea. Like, don’t get me wrong, the idea was sound, but the markets weren’t there. And, and there was some, you know, we found 12 failures in that space that Ted tried to go in that space and failed 12. And I said, Okay, it’s one thing to find one or two, that’s not bad, necessarily. But when you find 12, then you start looking and then you go, Okay, why didn’t then you start trying to answer because why did they fail? And you can’t be arrogant about it. It’s like, okay, because you got to assume that at least some of these people are pretty smart. And like, you know, their diligence too. And ultimately just figured out there wasn’t enough market for that idea. And we had to pull the plug. And so I think sometimes like, what you’re saying is that you got to take these calculated risks. So why ATMs? What got you into that? Did you have a background in finance or ATMs prior to that?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 8:09
I do have a background like not like crazy but like I do have a background in finance I would say when I was in college, you know at various internships at like, you know, big financial firms like Morgan Stanley, or Joe Brian Citadel, but then I was also like, you know, I really like Bitcoin as well. That’s kind of like what got me into the whole thing like the rabbit hole, you know, I found Bitcoin I was like, I want to buy some Bitcoin and I actually used to buy the first ever Bitcoin it was in like, 20 2014 I think, yes. 2014 so it was like, 2014 I was trying to buy the Bitcoin and I went, like, back in the day, it was really annoying to like, use like Coinbase I mean, no, it’s still kind of it’s like, you know, getting on boarded for the first time and whatever. Like, it’s still kind of a nightmare like back then it was like, you know, really, really not smooth to get bitcoins honestly I want the easiest way possible so I went to the Bitcoin ATM first ever one in Chicago I didn’t like the features like I didn’t like the bill acceptor It was kind of annoying like it didn’t spit a lot of bills back like the money came back took a while to get the Bitcoin the fees were like crazy I think they’re really over 10% whatever so 1213 maybe even 14 I forgot but they’re really high so I went on local bitcoins calm and I met up with somebody in person to trade had that feature back then. So I just like that. So I bought my Bitcoin but then like, I started thinking of like, you know, the ATM versus like meeting up with someone and how like the ATM is way safer, and how it’s way more scalable. You know, like, it’s a, it’s not like you meeting up with someone you know, and then like having risk of getting shot or whatever it is or like, you know, meeting up or like $20,000 or whatever having to take orders or people having to do it like that’s not very scalable, so you need the ATMs to be put down. So that’s why I’m like, I could probably like even though that ATM that I use specifically was the best, like, I could probably improve on the model, which is also like a good example of like, you know, like you don’t have to necessarily reinvent the wheel like I I knew about these ATM so I liked the concept of them I liked what they were doing it just wasn’t being executed properly but there clearly was a demand because you know, I was especially because I was a customer you know, like I was buying Bitcoin that was someone there have to be some other people like me right? It’s not it’s probably not like complete fluke

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 10:39
How long did it take you to get from like the idea to do this to like getting a working prototype? What was that kind of process to like, you know, yeah, you manufacturing themselves or you licensing the manufacturing out to somebody else or buying from somebody else? How did they How did you get started with that piece of it?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 10:54
Yeah, of course. I mean, we just you know, I put down some money for floats, obviously, because we need some float for the Bitcoin. And then we start doing research on like regulations because you know, like, at the time there was like a bunch of there’s like the first ever like case of like, you know, somebody going to jail for whatever for like not being a registered Bitcoin MSP or like violating like MSB, you know, AML KYC regulations. So I’m like, you know, I just don’t know, I want to do things by the book. So I started researching regulations, there was no laws against it. I wrote a letter to the state regulator in Illinois, got the green lights, and you know, like, there’s nothing like you don’t have to register as like a money transmitter. I register with fincen everyone, every, you know, company dealing with big one at the time had to do there was like a mandate out. So I did register with fincen as a money service business, I developed an AML KYC policy and then I started looking for the best ATM. So I was just like, you know, just try and try out different models like not, um, you know, there’s a go to one store, you know, try this One, look online. Yeah, what’s the price this what the features are for this one, and then eventually I settled on general bytes. So general bytes was the best company at the time. So we have like a very close working relationship with general bytes. And we still use their ATMs today. You know, we also try to like, you know, have our own like version of the software that we add on. So it’s like, it’s dope. I think it’s been a great relationship. And I think we’ve done great things together.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 12:28
So, are Coinflip ATMs for crypto transactions only, or do you do normal credit card, debit card type or withdrawals as well?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 12:36
Well, there’s no reason to really do like debit and credit cards, I don’t think because why would anybody ever drive to use that when they could just do it online, right. So we do actually accept credit and debit cards on our website. We try to keep the fees really competitive as well. And I think you get Bitcoin in the hour, so it’s kind of cool. simplex. So we have that option but on the ATM itself for now, it’s just, it’s just cash. We do so 10 different cryptocurrencies.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 13:11
Very cool. So, you know, I know a lot of people that have gotten into like vending type industries and typically with that kind of industry, the hard part is finding a good spot, right? Where do you place the units? And what has been your strategy for placing units around the country?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 13:29
Well, I have a sales background, as well as like a financial background. So I was like a salesperson for vector marketing. I sold knives door to door for Cutco.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 13:39
I have a Cutco knife, a Fisherman’s solution.

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 13:43
It’s great. It’s great. Right? It’s a great product so I was very down to push it. I think I sold like $40,000 of knives during that summer. And then I also salesperson, the I finish like 42nd in the country. And then there was like a another time there was like Uber when They were just getting started. I mean, they weren’t just getting started, it was like 2014 2015. Like they were definitely around. But they wanted more college people to get involved. So in college, I was just like, hired to onboard people. So just like, you know, post in Facebook groups, like do all this other like guerilla marketing, get people to sign up for Uber. And so I finished like, think first in the Midwest for that campaign. So I was like, always into sales. You know, I liked sales. So I kind of use my experience, like, how to sell from like, you know, what my managers have previously taught me and I kind of like, molded that my approach to talking to stores. And I don’t think it’s like, obviously, it’s hard. The first one’s always gonna be the hardest one, but like, you make 500 calls a day or whatever, like 100 calls a day. Like eventually there will be somebody who’s down to accept money every month and foot traffic free, you know, free marketing for you know, square foot of space.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 14:58
So how are they managed? Somebody has to go put money in, pull money out. How do you handle that?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 15:06
We have a whole operations department like a whole cash logistics armored operations department that always keeps track of where our cash is. We work with obviously the biggest armored car carriers in the country. And we also have like some smaller ones as well. So we have a whole network of people that pick up the cache and take it to our different vaults across the country. So it’s a whole, like logistical operation now.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 15:29
So the question is, you know, I’ve talked to other people who have tried to do the crypto ATM kind of business and they’re either struggling in there I know of a couple of you probably do too, that you know, never got off the ground or, you know, going out of business. What’s what are you doing differently? That’s making you guys more successful you think?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 15:48
Um, we are working incredibly hard. I think that we’re all a bit younger, so we’re maybe a little bit more forward thinking. We never got any outside funding, so we’re just super efficient and everything we do. So, you know, we’ve been able to like bootstrap. So we have that mindset. So we have like, we don’t really have any, as much fat as maybe some of these other companies. You know, we charge the lowest fees, we just try to do the right thing every day. And we hire incredibly talented people. You know, I just don’t have a lot of my friends from past life for like people I know from like working environments that I know are talented, either from school, from Northwestern, from Deerfield, from other networking events, whatever it is, but like people I know that will do a good job. And I think we’ve been able to bring them in because they like, respect with what we’re doing.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 16:36
So what do you look for in a location? Say, when you’re placing one? What kind of requirements do you have for like, say, if you know, a store owner, for instance, what would you want to be like? Do you have like a minimum amount of volume they have to do a month or how does that look?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 16:51
No, I mean, we are like, the machines do well, pretty much everywhere. I mean, obviously there’ll always be some locations that are worse. Some that are better, but there’s always a demand for them. We’re just mainly looking for, you know, someplace with good parking someplace with good security or a gas station someplace, you know, easily accessible. We look for gas stations, liquor stores, convenience stores, some smaller restaurants. So any place that people are comfortable going to can go and have good security and people can access you know, as often as possible. That’s the spot I’m going for. We also pay anyone who does want to find locations for us, we pay them, we pay them upfront and a residual based on the amount that the machine does. So that’s always an option.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 17:44
We need to talk off the air. Yeah, we got an idea. But I think that’s it’s really interesting. And I think that the one of the things is on and off ramps are really hard, especially in the United States right now. And it’s It sucks right now you know and I look at it from being inside the industry to is like you know trying to do things legally in the US is hard I mean it really is yeah and people don’t understand the amount of regulation involved with you know trying to do things the right way you know kind of thing and it’s been pretty nuts so where do you think the the future crypto is gonna be? Do you think it’s Bitcoin Do you think other all coins are going to be leading the way defy I you don’t have I don’t have to hold you to the certainty. I’m just curious. I like to talk to other people and see what they’re what they’re seeing is going on because you’re dealing with real customers. You’re dealing with real people every day and that’s why I think you probably have some unique insights there.

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 18:43
Yeah, on the retail side, Bitcoin is king. By far. I can tell you that lunch for sure. So as of now, I think that Bitcoin has a very bright future ahead of it. Just simply be mean not simply because but a lot partly because of its first mover advantage, I think a lot of these other cool ideas from these other networks, they can kind of like layer on top of like, you know, there’s like whatever the lightning network to make it quicker. So I think that Bitcoin for the foreseeable future, you know, I think will be the king I think it’s kind of like the most slow changing, you know, kind of like most resistant to censorship, most decentralized coin right now, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. That being said, Nothing is forever. So it’s got to be the only thing that’s the caveat is it’s got to be like 10 times better than Bitcoin. Like, it can’t just be something that’s like, you know, 1.1 times better or like, you know, like, just slightly faster slightly. This has to be something that like people really want to, like, switch their infrastructure over to, you know, like, there’s kind of like that network effect like, you see it all the time in businesses to like they all use Windows computers, and they all use Microsoft, and they always Excel and That’s what they use year after year after year, even if it’s not necessarily the best product out there, but that’s how it’s been. That’s how it is. Slowly they change.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 20:12
It’s like VHS and beta, right? I always tell people that it’s not the the best product that wins. But generally the best marketed product that wins typically in some of those battles, and, you know, it’s just the way it is, unfortunately, I always tell people, and I get a lot of crap for this. But I say that, you know, the winning grip does whatever winning means, but probably in the future, the most popular kryptos will be the best marketed kryptos going forward. The ones that solve, you know, I call I i dotted this or coined this term, saying closing that last mile of crypto adoption, you know, the ones have figured out how to stimulate the actual demand on the consumer end, and I think whatever those projects are going to be the ones that rise to the top Eventually, the speculation can’t drive everything forever. Eventually. There’s got to be Be a customer involved.

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 21:02
100%

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 21:02
That’s how I see it. So, Daniel well Cool, well Daniel, where can people find out more about CoinFlip?

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 21:10
I just go to our website CoinFlip.tech. There are plenty of opportunities on there you know, you can use our coin flip preferred service get Bitcoin in the same day you can refer other people to this service. You can refer people to rates yams, you can help sell ATMs for us, you know, we have countless ways to engage the community to work together and you know, make money doing it and helping everyone get Bitcoin. So that’s why

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 21:35
Daniel, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate your time.

Daniel Polotsky – CoinFlip 21:39
I appreciate your time.

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Brock Pierce – Independent Presidential Candidate Transcript

Brock Pierce - Independent Presidential Candidate

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 0:01
Hey folks, Rob McNealy here. Hey folks Rob McNealy here and I am super excited. Today we are talking to Brock Pierce. He is probably the quintessential godfather of crypto and it is a true honor to be speaking with you. Hey, Brock, how are you?

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 0:19
Grateful. Glad to be here.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 0:22
I’m glad you’re here too. So a funny thing happened to me about a week ago, I was scrolling through the internet scrolling through the Twitter’s and I see this announcement from you. On Twitter, it says you’re running for president. Tell me what’s going on here, man.

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 0:44
Well, I’m I’m running for president of the United States of America as an independent candidate.I guess the the Why is perhaps what you want to know?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 0:56
I would love to know the why.

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 1:01
I’m very concerned about our collective future, you know, as a nation, but you know, as a species even, I look around, and I feel that we’re facing a number of existential threats. I see a nation that’s divided, I see polarization between the left and the right. And I don’t think that we’re on the right path. I’m very concerned about our collective future if we continue going down this path. And so I’m looking around for the last, you know, five years going, Okay, you know, where are these? You know, where are these people going? When are these people going to show up that are going to actually know how to fix this stuff, you know, kind of looking around waiting for something to happen, and no one’s really showing up. I see a lot of people talking about the changes that are needed, but I don’t see people throwing themselves, you know, into this type of running. And I think that this is a place from which we can make real change. And if no one else is going to do it, I guess I will. And I think there’s an important message that the American people need to hear right now, which is that we are all in this together, you know, this whole us versus them, we are us, and we are them. What happens to you is going to happen to me. And we need to find a way, I think, to transcend partisan politics to find a collective path forward, and so I’m excited to deliver a message that’s a little different than probably anything anyone’s heard, you know, at least in presidential candidates, which is a message from the heart, and it’s how do we reunite our nation? You know, how do we find that path forward together, so that there is a future for our kids and their kids and the generations that follow?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 2:46
I think that is something that we need right now. But I’m not gonna softball you. I mean, I got I got a real question. I mean, we had Kanye West announced that he was gonna run for office and then right around the time, you know, that you announced as well. Is this a serious run army? And is this just like a vanity thing? And I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way. I was a member of the Libertarian Party I ran as a third party candidate, knowing that I would never win the third party candidate. Are you serious about this?

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 3:16
I’m always serious about everything I do. I mean, certainly a commitment like this. I don’t think you would do it. I mean, I wouldn’t do it for any reason other than is a very, very, very serious endeavor. And things are going, things are going really well. And I do believe there’s a path to winning. But the question is, what is winning? From my perspective, there’s three different versions of winning, at a minimum, delivering a message that can get us to focus on the things that matter if that message is amplified enough and heard by enough people that could bring about real change. And so I think that that’s called level one. Winning is delivering that message. And we’ll see how effective I can be in doing that. The next level of winning is if that message actually starts to become a movement, you know, a movement, this isn’t about me, this is about all of us that actually believe in transcending partisan politics to bring about real change in this nation at a time that we need it. You know, I believe this is the 11th hour, I believe this is our defining moment, you know, the future is going to happen to us, or it’s going to happen with us. And I encourage all of us to get involved, if you see what I see, you know, if you feel when I feel it’s time to do something, this is our time to act. And so that movement through this election in 2020, to 2022, to 2024. You know, this is intended to be a movement that will bring about real change. And it’s not about me, it’s about all of us, all of us that are willing to sign up to go do something about it, and that signing up might be as little as voting, but let’s actually start to create the world in which we all want to live. And so that movement, I’d say is the second level of winning, and obviously the third, would be to be in the White House and in January of next year.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 5:06
You said you have a path to winning. And, and I see multiple wins there. You have a path to get ballot access, what is your strategy to get on a ballot?

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 5:16
Yeah, so, um, we’re on the ballot of Oklahoma as of yesterday.And we have a giant team working across the country, we will be on many many ballots.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 5:31
Very cool. I know, it’s like, especially in some states and, you know, running independents almost harder than running, you know, third party and a lot of these places because the the signature requirements and, and let’s just be honest, the the duopoly political system that we have, they don’t want competition from people and candidates that aren’t controlled. And so they make that third party Rhonda, that independent run very, very challenging, just from the requirements gathering point of view. And so, I always want to just say okay, here, people want to run for But it’s like, okay, there’s an actual pragmatic issue of getting, you know, on the ballot. And so if you have a strategy for that, I mean, that is amazing. So are you how are you funding this campaign? Are you gonna be self funding? Are you looking for donors? What’s that looking like for you guys?

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 6:17
So I self funded the entire call it beginning process of the campaign and I’m still the largest contributor to the campaign. But I believe that you want as many people participating and feeling ownership in the process. And so clearly, we are looking for anyone that wants to donate to this to this cause to this campaign. And in an ideal world, that would be millions of people, you know, dating and donating $1 $5 $10 $20 that’s in an ideal world, what would happen here and, and we hope that many people choose to get involved.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 6:53
And I think that makes a lot of sense. You do need a community it’s like building a crypto project, you need a herd supporting it.

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 6:59
I’d say this is one of the mistakes that I think Bloomberg made. Bloomberg chose to self fund everything. The problem is when you fund everything, you’re not out there building community, right? You’re not out there, giving people a feeling of ownership, you know, just funding yourself causes you to do things that you wouldn’t do otherwise, which is putting yourself before the people as much as possible and all the people and realizing that, you know, that person that gave you $1 is is just a much they’ve opted in. They are a contributor as the person that gave you 20 $800. And, you know, going out there and give building that coalition building that community of supporters. And I think it’s an essential part of the process. And I think that Bloomberg would have done better had he chosen to involve as many people as possible versus self funding.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 7:50
Well, I think part of the problem is, is that he bought that portion essentially, and instead of like trying to build a community, he just thought he could buy his way around that. And he missed the most important function is getting that buy in from people. And I think that you’re right that that’s absolutely a catastrophic mistake he made on his part. So platform, what are your issues? What are your hot button topics that you’re going to be, you know, focused on during the campaign?

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 8:18
Well, I’m, obviously the areas where I’m differentiated is in technology. For one. I think that technology has clearly affected all of our lives and all of our businesses and it’s going to continue to do so. And how do we work with technology to enhance our lives? And so technology is clearly a core component of everything we’re doing as a as an entrepreneur as a small business builder and owner. Clearly, I’m a big supporter of small business. I would be a small business sort of President. It’s probably worth noting other major things right now clearly we we need reform around our police our run our justice system around our prison system. These are hot button topics right now. And I firmly believe that we need real reform in these areas, well being health, health care, all of these sorts of things we can talk about mental health probably being the most important of which, you know, it’s, we know when our body is unhealthy, but it’s, you know, because you can see and feel it. But when you’re, you’re having mental health issues or spiritual health issues, those are not recognized as much and I think our country has a real mental health issue right now, this has been a very traumatizing year, whether it be you know, fear of COVID itself or just fear of how am I going to pay my mortgage, my rent put food on the table might be fear around our our future, the uncertainty of just everything that’s happening. So it’s been a very traumatic year. And that’s something that is not being discussed, I think nearly enough, might be worth also just commenting on my process. And so what We’re going to be releasing this week is the details of this process. And so how do most politicians come up with their platform? And how do they define, you know, where do their policy ideas come from? It often comes from, you know, talking to experts, or lobbyists behind closed doors. But I’m going to do this a little differently, which is, instead of me meeting with people behind closed doors, I’m going to meet with these people. You know, with open doors, I’m going to do this in an open forum live in a town hall, so that if you want to see who I’m talking to, you know, where I’m getting my information from, and actually observe that conference, that that that process, that conversation, I invite you to tune in and actually watch and at the end, even to participate in the QA, and so that we can learn together. I don’t need to do this privately. I’ll show you who I get my information from. I’ll even you’ll watch me get educated in real time and you can learn right there alongside me and at the end of that process around each college policy issue, we’re going to be taking that portion of the platform and publishing that into a collaborative platform so that you can comment at it. And we can work on these issues together. You know, too often I think Polly politicians feel the need to have an answer to every question. versus just saying, I don’t know, I don’t have all the answers. But let’s get to that answer. And here’s my process for getting there. And I don’t know where that where the best information is going to come from. I know in the world of open source software by putting projects into GitHub, you know, everyone can become a contributor, because I truly believe that every one of our voices matter, you know, everyone’s voice should be heard, at least have the potential for it to be heard in every voice counts. And so I truly want to give us that feeling of participation. And so this is an invitation to, to get involved, be part of the process.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 11:50
You’re going to be doing that for your campaign as well, where you’re actually taking in real time through like a repository kind of website.

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 11:57
That’s the goal. That should all be live. Starting next week.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 12:01
I’m excited to see it actually. Okay, so we’re screwed right now. I mean, I think on so many metrics in the United States, we have a lot of problems that we’re facing right now. And in my not so humble opinion, I think 2021 is actually going to be worse than 2020. Because I think that’s when a lot of the the damage that I believe has been done to the economy is probably gonna start manifesting. So January 1 2021, there’s a Brock Pierce presidency, you’re inheriting a giant mass, what’s the first thing you’re going to do

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 12:37
in terms of the economy, while we need to basically get jump started again, you know, people have to are gonna have to get back to work at some point. Some of the data that I received yesterday and I haven’t fact checked this yet, can we fact check this? The World Food Programme or WFP, as well as I think it was A released information saying that the economic damage related to this is going to cause 130 million deaths in the developing world due to starvation. And so I think what you’re raising is we understand the impact of the virus itself. And we understand, you know, the number of people that are getting sick and how many people are dying and how this is being affected, but we don’t really have a lot of visibility into the long term impact that this is going to have on the economy. Clearly, you know, unemployment rates, you know, skyrocketing small businesses failing, skyrocketing. And even when things open back up again, you can’t just put the band back together again. You know, it doesn’t it doesn’t it’s there’s not like an on off switch. It doesn’t work this way. And so yeah, it’s it’s going to be a very long road. And hopefully, we don’t end up in a situation similar to the Great Depression. And so where do I think the path forward? The United States has been the capital of innovation for a long time? And I think that we want to make sure that we continue to To be that through this fourth industrial revolution, I love the fact that we’re bringing the big fabricators like tsmc and Samsung into the United States to bring semiconductor development here. Clearly cities like Detroit that have all of this infrastructure for mass manufacturing, these things can be repurposed to be building, you know, 21st century products. And so how do we how do we bring as much innovation back into the economy? How do we invest in call it our collective future? You know, one of the things that we can do is invest heavily in upgrading, call it our infrastructure as a country. You know, there’s a and these are the sorts of things that can bring and create high paying high skilled jobs. I think that continuing to support innovation is probably the best path forward.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 14:47
Yeah, I agree. And it’s funny because I’m not funny, funny laugh laugh, but, you know, you’ve been reading my Twitter because I’ve been talking about the potential starvation issue next year. For three months now. That’s because I view that is because that, you know, four of the world’s major food exporting countries now are having looks like agricultural yields that are going to be much lower this fall. And if that if the harvest numbers in the fall do fall below a certain level, those four countries are not going to be exporting food to the third world. And that is what’s going to cause that starvation and and that is a concern. I’ve been telling people playing the garden since March. And because I think food is going to skyrocket in price and I think it’s going to create a lot of turmoil if that happens, but we won’t know what that really looks like until the fall harvest numbers but but I’m tracking with you there. Brock, I think I am concerned about that. foreign policy. What..

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 15:42
Just one last point on that. When we look at like what happened in Syria and other places. When we see these revolutions occur. It normally comes from rising prices in food food, when people become hungry. You know, that’s when you know things get really gnarly. Yeah. And this is going to be a very real issue. And one and one that I’d like to echo that, that statement and continue to echo and echo and echo and echo it, which is planted garden planting garden. You know, this is something that it’s good for your health. It’s good for your spirit. And it might be really good for your belly. If things get too and your pocketbook

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 16:29
I’ll send you some Zucchinis because my wife is we’re overwhelmed and zucchini right now but yeah, I mean, we planted our biggest garden ever this year for the same reason and and as much as we dollar cost average or SATs for doing that now with groceries as well buy food. I’m telling people buy food. I hope I’m wrong on this because you know, it’s like when you get countries like India, which is the number two rice exporter, India feeds the Middle East, their rice and Africa their rice. Right now Brazil is the number one protein exporter in the world. They’re having massive problem with COVID and I think It’ll be interesting to see what happens in the US. And again, I’m looking at those fall numbers. I mean, the commodities traders out there probably are the most clued in on what’s happening in that field. But I think people are gonna be really paying attention to commodities brokers and about, you know, for months. And it’ll be interesting with those futures look like, I guess. Well, I know, we don’t have a lot of time left, but foreign policy right now. We’re in multiple wars still. That seemed like they’re never ending. We’re having bad trade relations with places like China. There’s obviously a lot of contention with Russia. How will Brock Pierce deal with foreign the one just foreign policy in general, but these specific kind of problems we’re seeing right now.

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 17:45
So I’ve spent most of my life working all over the world. You know, I lived in Europe for a meaningful amount of my life. I’ve lived in Asia for a substantial amount of my life. And I’ve traveled the world. You know continually for my my entire adult life. And so yeah, we live in we share one planet? And how do we deal with our neighboring countries and countries around the world? And how do we put in place good trade policies that make dollars and cents with an objective or an intention of Win Win scenarios, you know, doing, you know, putting in place creating arrangements for both parties benefit? You know, it’s not you don’t have to, you know, I don’t have to win, you know, you don’t have to lose for me to win. And, and how, you know, knowing that, you know, peace and prosperity is the, you know, call it, I think long term objective for all of us. How do we create a more peaceful world? Now, how do we deal with, you know, some of the more challenging government situations of China probably being the most complicated of them. And I guess we’re where would you like to double click on any of this? Absolutely.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 18:59
Brock, where can people find out more if they want to get involved with supporting your campaign or donating to your campaign?

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 19:05
I go to the website which is Brock.vote, you know, Brock.vote. And you can sign up to just to stay tuned, stay aware of what it is that we’re doing. Clearly you can volunteer and get involved to the extent that you’d like to support this, this process and donate as well to the extent that you’d like to to contribute. All of it matters. We seek all of your support.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 19:33
Brock, thank you so much for coming on today. I look forward to watching your campaign unfold over the next few months.

Brock Pierce-Presidential Candidate 19:40
Yeah, Rob. Happy to come back again. It’s good to see you. Thank you for having me. Have a great day. You too.

Episode Links

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Interview Transcript

Barbara Bickham – WIFAX Transcript

Barbara Bickham - WIFAX

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks, Rob McNealy here. And I am real excited to talk to you guys today because we have an amazing guest. Her name is Barbara Bickham and she is an amazing woman. We met here probably about a month ago. And she is the managing partner of the women’s Innovation Fund accelerator, also known as with x. It’s kind of a VC firm. And it focuses on women in tech. And this is one of the things that’s really exciting. Barbara is also the founder and CTO of trailing ventures, which is a blockchain consulting company. So like to welcome to the show. Barbara, how are you today?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I’m good. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 
Hey, you know, I’ve had a lot of good conversations with your last couple weeks and I’m said you need to come on the show because I because I think you have a perspective that I think a lot of people need to hear and I really like what you’re doing and where you’re focusing on you know, tech and bring more women and so look Let’s take a look to take a step back. And, you know, tell me a little bit about your career and how you got into tech.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
All right, well, this is one of the two stories I think you’ll ask me about. The second thing will be how did I get into blockchain? So no, I won’t ask that. You won’t ask them. That’s a famous one as well.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Okay. So it’s always you always have to ask how did you get into bitcoin and I never use that.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
Bitcoin. How do I get into the blockchain space? Exactly? separate question. But how did I become a tech girl tech girl. So um, when I was in high school, I had a project. And it was to make an area of a circle and it was in a computer science class. So my high school had computer science. I went to kind of a private Catholic school, and they had computer science there. And so the, the assignment was to make an area of a circle. And so I did that assignment and I did it in like a week. was to use, we had to print out a flowchart of how we would make the area of a circle. And I did it in Visual Basic. So this is like way back before any super fancy programming languages. So I did that. And I was like, well, this is kind of boring, I need to do more assignments. So what I decided to do was extend my flowchart and do every square error rectangle area of a triangle, because you..

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Show off.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
…which one do you want to do. And then you could kind of click and say I want to do rectangle number four, and then it would do the do the flowchart and say, if it’s a rectangle, then compute the, you know, enter in the number and then you entered in the number and then it computed it. So that that didn’t take me too long. But that’s kind of how I fell in love with computers. So then after that I got into Berkeley, I still don’t know how that happened. It’s kind of a mystery, one of those life mysteries, because I didn’t really apply. So I’m trying to figure out how that happened. Maybe that was just on their radar, something that happens I guess, and go They’re not my computer science degree. I have a Bachelors of Arts. So it’s interesting because at Berkeley to get the bachelors of science you have to get into engineering school. And then the engineering school maybe you took all that Kimmy II, me physically and I didn’t want to take all that was it. I just wanted my lovely computers, I don’t need to have an engineering degree and a computer science degree. So I just took the CS part. So I went there, and then I got my first job. So after I got my first job, when I got it, they were like, Hey, we want you to create this program out of nothing. Here’s a blank paper. We want you to do this translating program, and we don’t care how you write it. We just want you to do it. Not when are you sure cuz I literally just graduated from school. Um, I don’t know, I don’t really have any experience writing code or doing this yet. So no, you went to Berkeley. You should printed out. So that became one of their biggest products It was called. It was called a story geometry note. So what we did was is we converted something from editors page planner, this is prior to the fancy internet, you had to actually print out paper, as like newspaper, the newspaper business is very different than it was back then. But this was one of the first computerized ways to actually print newspapers on the computer. So we had this ad makeup station, and then we had the ability to enter in stories. This thing kind of filled in the parts on the paper. If you had if you saw like ads in the corner, I was just like, here’s an ad or you saw like a small story in the corners like, here’s like Joe’s little commentary, that’s that was that was what that particular software did. It helped find kind of where to fill in pieces of paper. So that was my first job. After that I had a very traditional career, a lot of architecting and designing systems, a lot of managing people and and about 15 years into my career, I had an opportunity to start a company. So I started a company called tech deny what tection. I was originally. This is like story of pivots, what tech and I was originally it was supposed to be the ability to do wireless roaming across multiple networks. So Wi Fi network and cellular network. Those were the two back in the day that you were going to roam across. So I figured out how to do that. And I did all these surveys I did all this consumer asking and you know, focus groups and things that you do now in the Lean Startup method. And what happened was people found out I was in the wireless business, I’m in LA, and this is Hollywood. And I was talking to some of my entertainment friends and they said, Hey, can you put that American Idol stop avoiding and pulling in my show? I went Hmm. Yeah, I think I could do that. I knew all the people. So I pivoted, I completely pivoted my company to do that. And, and tech denies actually one of the wireless pioneers in the United States, we kind of brought the wireless into mass adoption. So we helped a lot with shortcodes. So when you texthelp 212345, that’s partially my fault, QR codes, partially my fault. So I work with a lot of the technology to kind of create the mass adoption. Um, so that’s what tech Gemini was. During the time of running that company. I had somebody come to me and go, Hey, I have an angel group. Would you like to run an angel group? And I said, Hmm, well, yeah, that could be interesting. Let me do that, too. So while I was running my company, tech tonight, I was also running this angel group. And so I ran a group called the pcn LA and I had about 400 angels in there and This was during 2008 2007 2008 2009. We all know what happened in there were a few less angels in 2009. And my angels were very great because they said, you know, a bar, we love you, but we’re kind of a little less angels now, right now in this moment. So I was like, okay, so I shut that down and then obviously had this. But then I found an opportunity to work with a private merchant bank, that kind of shut down. And so then I went back to my coding roots. So I went to work for a European company. I was the lone American in the European company. So I had workers in Europe and workers in India, so I was alone American. So that was also very interesting, because during that time, I had a lot of work to do, because you’re working from nine to 11. Because you have the Indian part, the British part, when you talk to them, when do they talk to you, you know, it’s like a lot of coordinating in that. So I did that, for about four years, and in that company, I actually won them an award. So they had something called AI hub IoT. They were an Internet of Things company. And I wrote, they had a contract for the government to deploy internet of things into various colleges and companies. So their first deployment, they needed a REST API and they didn’t have one. So the auditor came because we were being checked by the government. And they said, Well, look, in order for you guys to get your check. You have to have this stuff done. This was in August, and it was the stuff was due in October. So how many months is that? August, September, October, bam, okay. They’re like okay, Mark, who’s gonna write this and then my Maya, my colleague and kind of boss at the time, he’s like, all right, I said, You don’t you don’t have time right that you know, you’re Not gonna write that. So I’ll write it. And then the person I was supposed to write it didn’t didn’t want to write it either. So I said, Well, I’m not even supposed to be on this project, honestly. So I’ll just read it. So two months later, REST API comes out. We win a Gartner cool vendor award. We, the deployment was flawless. I think they found one problem in it, and I fixed it. And it was a very minor problem. Cuz somebody actually put in like, 26,000 requests in a minute. And I was like, well, that’s not good. I’ll wait limit this. And it but it didn’t fall over. So that was that was a claim to fame. So after that kind of ended, that was 2014 2015 popped out of the hole. I said, Well, you know what? I can’t be a VP of engineering anymore. I might as well now be a CTO. So I popped down and said, Hey, everybody, I’m a CTO now. And it’s funny. I went to start networking back and some of my groups and everyone’s like, I don’t You know, hey, they’re like, hey, Bob, what are you up to? I said, Well, I’m doing the CTO thing and they went, you know how to code. Why? Because when you have the CEO moniker, which I had at Tec nine, and these other things, like they don’t think you are, you came from a computer background, they had no clue. So you know, of course, I’m not going to have you know, technical person on myself, I have SEO, because I want you to take me as that. So that’s why I trailing I have CTO as my moniker. I am the CEO as well. But it’s like I want to meet make it clear, like I’m very technical. So you’re talking to a tech, the technical person, as well as trailing like that. So that so now, so like I became a CTO, and that kind of goes into trailing. So trailing is my blockchain advisory company, we kind of put companies on blockchains. We actually work with AI, AR and IoT. We work with all the emerging tech actually. So we have companies innovate on those areas. Um, what about trailing I mean, you know, we have private clients, I think trail is gonna morph a little bit. Because, you know, a lot of people need other types of technical help and strategic level technical help. And the other hand, I wear it with x, and we’ll talk about how that trajectory came as well. Um, I can help apply some of that into startups and I had been doing that prior to starting with x the fund, I’d always help companies raise money I’d always help companies with their pitches, I’d always help companies with their business strategy. How do you make revenues How do you make money What is your monetization because as a technical person, you have to understand like how is that now going to be implemented into your software? Now you can just do stripe easy, but what if you want to put something else in their cryptocurrency or what if you want to do PayPal or what if you want to do Braintree or Amazon or, or other, you know, other payment mechanisms. So you just got to be at work normal b2b, and then I don’t have to worry about it, you’re going to do a traditional, like, send an invoice. But even that can be done by a computer now. So the question becomes, from a, from a technical side, what do we need to put in here? To make it monetizable? What are the revenue models that impact the technology? And then how can we make that scale? So a lot of people never understood this, like, why is this important? It’s important because how are we making money here? You’re not gonna you know, if you’re gonna kind of give up things for free. Nowadays, you have to look at the scale of that what that has to be million people, 2 million people for it to be interesting for anybody. Whereas if you have, you know, 10,000 good people paying you every month, that’s a good thing. So you have to look at it that way. I think.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I think one of the things you’re touching on is common in tech is where you have developer led projects. Purchase versus like an entrepreneur lead project, where they kind of see different things, a lot of tech people, you know, they just want to build. But, you know, I always come at things, and I’m not a developer. But what I always kind of see is, you know, find a customer first and then build a solution to their problem and do that first. And I find when I started looking at businesses from that perspective, instead of just building something I had in my head. Now that can work but you know, you got to do a lot of diligence validation before you move forward on that. But I think, you know, there are a lot of developer led projects that don’t understand revenue, don’t understand business development and markets and things like that. And I think that’s important that you as a VC understand the tech side really heavily. But you also understand, you know, the business side, you’re like the Lee Iacocca of tech, right?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
Because Lee Iacocca was so awesome.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, you know, a lot of people don’t understand that he, you know, he was heavily involved with Product Development and Engineering. And I think he actually had was an engineer at one point. And then that’s when he developed them, you know, the marketing for developed the Mustang project and then later, you know, went to Chrysler and built all those products but he was one of those rare people that can make that transition from the tech side to the actual business and leadership side, because that’s rare. And and it’s interesting that you..

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I’ve always, I’ve always been interested in business and always said, I wouldn’t have a company even when I was young, a young person I you know, like the technology thing just kind of fell like it just kind of fell into and actually it just became my thing that I’m naturally was excellent to do. And I was blessed to find that very early. But I was always interested in fascinated by business and in from a technology side from a technical person side if you think about systems and how systems work, and how things flow like business is like an ultimate kind. systems level view of life because it’s kind of like how do these things work? What happens if you have to pivot? You know, we have the global pandemic, because I do call it the global pandemic, you know, how you know, all systems are shifting. So how do you strategically pivot or move that or change it and I think like my natural ability to architect and design systems, is is is kind of utilized when you look at things from a business perspective and go Okay, you can architect and design things in your business just like you would from a software or product side as well in my mind. So to me, there’s kind of, you know, it’s not really that different that different, but I agree with you. I think sometimes, you know, tech people are very tech heavy business people are very business heavy, but that’s why you need those alliances. That’s why you really need kind of to build an advisory board, a mastermind, you know, have other people kind of around you and and so you can get the advice of Look, this, you know, I’m building this like, Is there a market for this? Do I have competition? No, I don’t have any competition. You always have competition the way you the way it’s done now is competition. So, no. Hey. So I mean, you know that this is why bringing the business people in the 10 people together is very powerful.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I think so as well. So you you I won’t ask that one question. But you are involved in emerging technologies.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I am I’m in all of them, actually.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So why focus on the emerging technologies versus more traditional programming and, you know, consulting models?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com

In the emerging tech world, Well, okay, let’s take it pre pandemic, and then post pandemic. So if you look at what’s happened before, the global pandemic, what what was what what shifts were going on, you know, we’re, we’re in the US here, so I don’t know how how Global your your podcast as well. But the thing about it is if you think about it, we were talking about like voting. There’s a lot of conversations around voting. So why is voting not on some emerging tech platform where you could validate who you are, you have a slate of people, and then you go, Okay, I vote for this slate of people or whatever you check 1111 on a computer, on your phone, wherever, and then you submit it and you know, it’s you because they validated it was you, huh? Okay, does that sound technically, that’s not a hard problem to solve. But it’s some of this is really political will. So now if you look at post pandemic, we I know many countries that that stimulus. Now I also know many countries were clearly more prepared for stimulus than United States. So if you think about that distribution of money, or distribution period, it could be distribution of food. We have no shortage of those Toilet paper. Why was that? We had shortages of other things. Why was that these are distribution problems. If you look at that, like some of this could have been tracked and traced on these emerging tax and AI could have told you like, hey, you’re running out of toilet paper, and you only have like two weeks of toilet paper in the pipe, you might need to go order 15 or 20 weeks of toilet paper. Now, the AI also could have said the global supply of toilet paper is only five weeks. So for everyone on the planet, it’s only five weeks of toilet paper, something could have told us that. But um, you know, if you would have done a more traditional system, how would you have found that out? Who are you going to call? Who do you want to call you back? How are you going to know? It’s all centralized? So the one with all the toilet paper and we had people that did this, oh, I bought all this hand sanitizer and I bought all this stuff. We had people that were hoarding, so if you’re hoarding they were already mad asks, Who are you gonna? How are we going to find that out? It was going to be impossible. That’s why I work in the emerging tech field to actually solve problems at scale. Because all these things are going to be all infrastructure. AI is already pretty ubiquitous. People ask me about it all the time. What about AI? You know, if you go to McDonald’s, or Starbucks, I don’t know if you ever go to McDonald’s. I don’t really go there. But I found this out. Like when you go to most of these restaurants now and you order, you’re really talking to an AI, you’re not talking to a person. And then you’re talking to the AI and then sometimes they go, Oh, hold on, and then you hear a person interrupt. That is the AI has said, Hey, I don’t understand their order. I don’t understand something and then the person interrupts. So AI is very ubiquitous when you call the bank, which is annoying, or anything now the electric car, anything, if you call anything I called the phone week. That’s an AI. The AI is like, I don’t understand, I don’t understand. I’m like person 000 can I get to a person? No, it won’t let you. Yes. It’s like Hello, hello. So I mean, if you think about these emerging texts, it, they’re going to be all infrastructure. And so why don’t you want to be in kind of the next generation of what’s happening? Because, you know, post pandemic has proven a lot of things, what’s really going to be necessary and what is not and what skill sets are going to be necessary and what is not. I think that is whole other conversation.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com

That’s like a whole other conversation.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com

Yeah, I think politics is a big deal. And I think that that definitely permeates, you know, a lot of different things. And I mean, we could unpack you know, things like the global pandemic and from the political side of it, which it’s been politicized and poison throughout, you know, all levels of Government and, and stuff and, and my wife’s a medical doctor who, you know, works kind of with the federal government. And so trust me, I we view the pandemic probably differently than a lot of people do. But we definitely are concerned and it definitely is a problem. And, and it’s a problem that’s solvable. And, and, you know, it’s like we we seem to the United States, it’s like, we certainly have had a hard time, you know, coming together as a people, I think that’s part of the problem is that you look at the countries that have done the best at like New Zealand, which is virus free now, or Sweden and the Netherlands.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Where they, they’ve come together, and they viewed it, you know, as they viewed it as the country versus the virus. And here, it’s the one side of the political aisle versus the other end versus the virus. So, and that’s the problem. And I think ultimately, you know, if from I think those of us who think in terms of actual solving problems and not all of it sticks. It’s hard for us to like, you know, you know, it’s a head scratcher. It’s definitely head scratcher. Um, okay, let’s, let’s pivot a little bit. Let’s talk a bit about with accent and what you’re doing with your accelerator with women in tech. What’s that all about?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com 
Alright, so let me with x it you know, it’s called the women’s Innovation Fund accelerator. So the women portion of with x is that we like gender balanced sea level. So we like an equal amount of men and women, you can have a few more women than men. We do have a few people that are all women. But that’s where we do have one set that’s all man that’s like super rare. We usually don’t take those people. I kind of knew that person. So they they got in, but we like the balance. And I’ll tell you why in a minute, the innovation emerging tech and sustainability so we do the blockchain, ai AR IoT and they will also help the companies become sustainable companies because we believe those are Your next set of consumers, you know, a lot of younger people younger than us, I think, like the sustainability aspect. They like that you’re corporately responsible, environmentally responsible, socially responsible. So we kind of help the companies become that in the accelerator. We’re fun. We’re opportunities on impact fund. So we’re very localized. We’re about creating jobs giving opportunity to underserved, underrepresented people. That could be women that could be black and brown. It could be any income underrepresented people, and then we’re an accelerator. So our celebrator does two things. We help your company become fundable and we make you sustainable. So our fungibility quotient is we run this thing called the due diligence intensive. So I have a very rigorous due diligence package, and it’s six weeks. So we go through this checklist which is six pages. the back part What I have to do is a lot more pages. If you’re a blockchain company, it’s even extra pages. It’s like it goes between 28 and 35 pages that I have to do to, to validate like your real company, this is a real thing. You know, you get feedback on that. And then it’s two weeks of sustainability. So they get one year sustainability plan, which we track internal to our fund. So that’s what’s very different about our fund. You know, we’re not really a traditional, I mean, we are a venture fund or traditional and that way, you know, we like the traditional venture returns, but we’re also very community oriented or socially oriented. We like to work with people that want to scale big, global or global reach as well. We have partners in Korea, my other stuff, people on our board that help us get over into Asia and Korea. So, you know, we’re, we’re knocking that around. So that’s, that’s us in a nutshell. So we we absolutely feel the need to support women in STEM and steam. I mean, I’ve been in STEM and steam my whole life. It’s important, even not from a technological side to be in it, because most companies are tech enabled. But you need somebody that understands that like, Hey, are you going to be Facebook? Where you need heavy tech? Are you going to be something else where it’s tech enabled? So you know, there’s that as well. And then how are you you know, then you have your business wrappings as well. How are you going to monetize? How are you going to get customers how are you going to grow? How are you going to pivot? How you gonna? Yeah, so there’s a lot a lot to business and a lot to run your fund. Because then we have our portfolio construction how are we how are we getting everyone to play together? Then you have your you know, co investors and you have your your investors as many things running apart.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I can imagine. How many portfolio companies do you have now?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
So we have we have four portfolio companies that we put powder into. And we have about we’ve done 17 companies in acceleration.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Wow. That’s, that’s good. I’m sorry. You focus mainly with your accelerator on seed stage. Are you looking? How many stages Do you want to go to? And are you looking to grow your fund as well to later stage kind of companies?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
You know what, I think we’re probably like late seed early series. So that’s kind of where we want to play. Um, I think leader leader stage there are a lot of people that, you know, now you’re competing with like Andreessen Horowitz is and you know, like earliest bond and many you know, you’re dealing with like, a lot of other more mature funds at that stage. I still think that for women, there is a gap between seed and be like seed and be so We are in our fun we are doing follow on money. So like if you get an A and we do the A with someone, then we’re willing to do the be and be a part of that. And then I think if you get at that level, so we’re talking about 50 6070, hundred million dollar revenue level ish, then you know, you should be able to get either out or kind of, you know, up to the next levels. The other thing that we that we do here is we, we have something called a capital stack program, and we’re testing it on ourselves versus not ourselves, but on some of the portfolio companies. And what that is, is we look at how do you exit and then roll back. So what do we need to do to potentially get you to exit because the IPO market is frothy, like private companies are taking longer and longer to come out nine years, 10 years, 12 years, you know, that’s a long time if you’re sitting there at the seat or a level, that’s a long time to wait. So we say, Okay, how can we configure it so that you can potentially, you know, be attractive for an exit, which could be an acquisition, you’re acquiring, they’re acquiring. So that’s that’s how we see we see exits as well. So that’s that’s kind of how we were working. So far. It’s working well.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So if you had a project that wanted to come to you, but they don’t have a woman, do you have people in a stable that you can put on teams?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com 28:28
Yes, we absolutely do. It depends on what they what the configuration is. But yes, we can put women on teams. Absolutely.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com 
So I really like what you’re doing and it’s kind of funny. My wife and I are big believers in STEM, and we actually homeschool our kids. And we have two we have two daughters and the reason we homeschool primarily, it’s not for religious reasons, which is pretty common among homeschoolers, but we want to ensure that our daughters and our sons but all our kids, got a really strong STEM education. So My oldest daughter is 17. And she’s going toward Chem engineering. But she’s already she’s finishing up her sophomore year college at 17. And so, yeah, so she’s doing that. And so she’s doing all but it’s interesting because all our kids are a couple years ahead of where they would be in public school. It’s just homeschool is just so much more efficient at getting kids through. And we found that stem is, you know, it’s one of the things that I’m concerned about the United States long term is culturally, we don’t value education as a country anymore. And I’m not sure we did for a long time either. But I think that I think we’re beginning to become less competitive as a country going forward. And, and a lot of that stem and I think a lot of the problems you’re seeing with all the people, you know, you see a lot of people like boomers and millennials that are struggling. And a lot of that goes back to, I think, a bad education model that we have in the United States. And in in I’m not trying to get political right. But…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com 30:04
This is just factual. I mean, we’re talking about facts here. This is not a political statement, I mean, education that cuts across everything, and everyone, actually.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And what about one of the things that I see as a problem with education, and I think this affects girls too. So I think this is important is that we don’t focus on in the United States in our public school systems pretty much anywhere. We do not focus on science and education. And we don’t, we don’t train kids to mastery. We just push them through the system. And one of the things that we do different with our education, our values, we tell our kids look, it takes as long as it takes for you to master this however, you don’t go to the next level until you master it. We will give you all the tools that you need, including hiring tutors, or what have you, to get you to that mastery, but we don’t let our kids go to the next level of what others, whatever…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
Whatever it may be…

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Unless they’re mastering it. Meaning that they basically get an A, you know? And when I tell people this that are my friends that have their kids a post with a like, Wow, that’s so mean that’s so hard. And I’m like, why would you progress, somebody who’s failing at something or just mediocre at something, because things only typically get harder as you go forward. And if you’re not having a good grasp of basics, you’re going to struggle. And and so it’s interesting and it’s interesting the United States on top of that with public school, you have so many people because of the way we do student loans and stuff that they had a lot of bad advice given to kids I think is like they take on so much debt…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com 31:37
and a ton of debt…

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
…a ton of debt, but…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com 31:40
…and no marketable skills…

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
…but they take on a lot of debt for no ROI. And so it’s interesting. So I mean, we’ve had a lot of a lot of arguments and time and and discussions, especially with my older kid. But she came around eventually, but we said look, if we’re going to pay for education now I think paying for an education is part of being a good parent, I think it’s I think we owe that. Now, that doesn’t mean that doesn’t have to be a college degree, but we think that you’re gonna move forward. You know, your kid has to have enough life skills to be independent at 18. Like they know how to drive a car, they know how to change tire, they know how to, like, do laundry could buy all those things in work and make money and make good business decisions, a good buying decision. I mean, we we have a very holistic approach, unlike an 18 my kids need to do these things. Because those things are important. And, and so I think what’s happened is you have all these people that for so long, they just like, Oh, I’m gonna go spend 100 grand to get this education that starting pay is like $16 an hour. And my one daughter, you know, she’s had she’s had to work hard to get where she’s getting with her grades in school because you know, stem is hard, okay, you have to do four levels of calculus for an engineering degree. Yeah, and what we said is, but I said it and right now it’s like, it’s kind of a joke. I have an MBA. And I also wanted to learn to be a welder. Because I like to make metal art. That’s my hobby. And last summer a year ago, I graduated from a year and a half long, full blown welding program. I’m a certified welder. I went to school full time for a year and a half to become a hobby welder is kind of funny, but I’m a full welder. And, and it was hard actually, because I’m not I don’t have great hand eye coordination, but but I learned to weld and it’s interesting because I got to be around a lot of kids or half my age. I was like, oldest guy in my class. I was older my instructor and you know, but a lot of these guys are blue collar kids, but these kids are coming out of welding school. They could do so it was a nighttime program four nights a week, right. So blue collar blue collar is again, I but I respect people that work with their hands. But the interesting thing is this this program from start Finished was less than over a year and a half and you paid it in payments $6,000. So, that’s the cost of vacation. Oh, maybe 6500 by the time you buy your welding helmet and all the gear, but it was about six grand is what it was. And you could work during the day. It was designed for people that had a day job. So you’re 18 years old. By the time you’re 19 you can have the certification, have a skill, don’t have to not work while you’re going to school because you can go at night. Now, here’s the interesting. They’re so desperate for welders in the United States right now. This this was interesting, and I was shocked. They had major corporations that are major industrial corporations coming to our welding program, trying to recruit us halfway through to start work bring the day starting at $30,000 a year, you know, or more up to 4030 to 40 K so like 15 to $20 an hour plus full benefits 401k Matching healthcare, you name it. I mean, all major typical corporate Pac benefits packages, vacation vacation, boot allowance, you name it, and I’m just like, oh my god. So, so think so think about this. And I tried to explain this to my kid when she’s like, wanting to look at a different lessor major that didn’t have a good ROI. And I said, Look, you know, we can pay whatever it’s going to be for you to go to the college and get this degree 30 $40,000 whatever it ends up being. And then you make 40 grand a year with this type of major that she was interested in and I said, Look, that’s not worth the money. I would rather you go to welding school. Or, you know, they they’re posting at the school for electronics technicians for a two year degree to be just an electronic repair started at 56,000 a year with a two year basically an associate degree from a community college people were starting. The local rail yard is starting It people at 35,000 a year with no experience to work in the rail industry. And you know, these are more hands on blue collar jobs. But…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I mean, these are all you know, these are all interesting things because you still need some tech, you know, technical ability, you still need to do math, you can’t eld just wherever you are, you’ll need some type of creativity and thinking, you know, like, you’re still gonna have to measure so you’re gonna have to know some math, you know, I’m saying like, so, you know, because we’re talking about STEM and steam. And I think from, from a technology perspective, no matter what it is, you have to have that you may not have to have the science unless you want to do that heavy science like biology or you know, your soil. The problem for COVID-19 you’re trying to make a vaccine. You clearly need science for that. But the you know, the technology in the math part, I mean, as long as you’re a lifelong learner and you’re really good at what you do, and you really understand how systems work and things work. I mean, I don’t believe you have to have a traditional education. I mean, back in the day, we had to have a traditional education because we didn’t have the choice to do a traditional, you know, non traditional, we can go on, you know, now, if you think about it, even prior to everything happening, you could go online and learn anything. Like they have you to me, they had one, yeah, the Khan Academy, they had it they had, you know, like Berkeley and Stanford and all the other people that opened kind of opened up their, their edX platform, and you could go on to anything, so and you could learn anything. Um, so it’s not necessarily about where you learn it. It’s about are you learning? And then how do you then apply it? And I agree with you on mastery, because in this computer science world that I’ve been in a long time, mastery is important, because you could really, you know, I worked for a pacemaker company and That was interesting. But you don’t master have any mastery of what’s going on there, you’re going to kill somebody. So, you know, there are things where if you don’t have mastery, it can really hurt people in a bad way, in a negative way. And so I like what you said about that. And I think that we have gotten away from from that mastery and you know, even in your own craft, are you a master in your own craft, but if you think about education, which kind of started this conversation off, education, it has gotten completely, it’s completely failed. I’ve met multiple people from multiple colleges trying to get a job in the computer world, and they had peace and freedom degree. I don’t even know what that is like, what was the peace and freedom? Like and I don’t know how that relates to computers. And I don’t you know, yeah, you got a degree from Berkeley, but that’s a worthless piece of paper. So I really like you spent a lot of money on Nothing. And now you have to go get some PhD and peace and freedom. I don’t even know how that works or what you’re gonna do. But it’s kind of like, Did you not? Did you not think of this? Did your parents not have a conversation with you? Were you being rebellious and said, I’m gonna go get a piece of freedom degree and they said no, you should really be this Oh, like, you know that and then like did the school counselor really like say hey this is a good idea yeah you’re down for peace and freedom, like it doesn’t make some of these actual offerings of degrees make no sense.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And you’re getting a lot done I guess that was my my long winded tale is that you can get a very worthwhile high ROI education making good money without having to take off anytime and with at 19 years old you have you can make enough money with no debt so you can work your way through like a, I guess, a whole lot of different type of you know…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
It could be many things.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You know, the lot of things and not have any debt and have be completely self sustainable by the time you’re 20, where you’re if you’re making 40 grand a year and you’re 20, you can easily live on your own. If you bail, if you have decent money management skills in Utah, you can you could run your own apartment, have a new car, and live on that. And, and so, and what I see right now is so many people are in debt for these degrees that have no skills, there’s no ROI. And it’s like it came down to me it’s like it seems like no one had no parent had that conversation about does this conversation to take five years of your life to get this degree where you can’t work and I’m like, okay, we can go to welding school at night and never take off and lose any opportunity cost for working for five years. Work your way through pay as you go. And now you’re self sufficient in 19. But then, you know, and I was talking to like even in welding, that there’s a track to be a weld inspector and then an expert with other things and you can be a welding engineer. They do have bachelor’s degrees in it. Welding engineer so if you decide to keep going, so you can be an entrepreneur welders, like if you bought if you are an entrepreneur welder can make 60-80 bucks an hour if you have a weld shop and then if you are a mobile welder where you

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I mean there’s many different things, there’s all sorts, this is the business side of your actual like creativity. So like I kind of took my tech side and began, you know, in and created a business around that and saying with a fund I mean a fund is kind of like a business on steroids but still a business still need ROI. You still have to answer investors, you still have to make you know, decisions, you still have strategy slam, you know, a lot of things to do…

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
But it opens the door to make it so young people have a way to have a very successful life at a young age and still have lots of options. And no one talks about that, you know,

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
You know who is actually very famous for this is Mike Rowe?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yes, Dirty jobs.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
The Dirty Jobs. Yeah, he’s very, very good. Famous for, you know, hey, if you’re a welder, if you’re a plumber, if you’re, you know, the railroad guy, I mean sanitation, I mean, and they make decent money, they make decent money. I’m like 19 year old you make 40 or 50 grand. I mean, that’s, that’s decent money.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
It’s in Utah. That’s amazing money. And so..

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
You know, money in general. I mean, if you even in LA that’s decent money. That’s above what everyone else making..

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
And you want to hear somehting interesting, it’s like there was like one girl in my welding program and like she was recruited out like twice there would be the guys because because just like any other Corporation right now if you’re a woman or a minority, they do have preferential hiring because they’re trying to fill slots was well, all these big companies, right? They want minorities, they want women, they can’t get them to apply. And it was just really,

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I think you know, back to the education piece. I think that’s partially education as well because One of my very good friends has a daughter. She has two daughters. And they decided she decided that her daughter needed to be opted out of math. And I said, Don’t let them record that on her record. Don’t do that. Because then you’ll always be labeled as you can’t do math. Right. I said, well get her a tutor. I said, we’ll have some other people tutor. I said, don’t have her labeled as that. But I think that this happens a lot. Where girls are discouraged from doing the math and the science and the hard thing and encouraged even still to this day, because this is not you know, this, she’s, she’s out of college, but it still was in the last I’d say, five or six years, which isn’t so long ago, where girls are discouraged and and it’s crazy. It’s crazy. I mean, we have to as women and moms and aunts and grandmas and all those things have to have to stand them in Look, we cannot allow our girls younger girls to go through all these same things. We went through a we’re the pioneers, so we’re going to try and pave away and make it easier for them. And so this is why with x kind of exists, and this is why we’re doing the balance. We’re doing the balance because we said, Look, women are, you know, the statistics are there 2% funding all women insane. And you know, underrepresented founders, even less insane. So, you know, we’re not as representative in all the tech spaces in the stem and steam insane. That’s why we’re doing the innovation. That’s why we do the emerging tech is so that we can we can be a part of the next generation economy. And then you know, like, just like welders. I mean, you’re going to need engineers, you’re going to need scientists, you’re going to need you know, you’re going to need a welder to build the quantum computer. So I mean, Hey, you got to have that happening. And the drones You need the water to build the drones. But then you need somebody to call the drones and program the drums. So there’s, you know, there’s all these things that can be going on, in, in synergy and in an ecosystem way that all these things can play together. But then who’s looking at that? who’s thinking about that? I mean, we’re talking about it now. And we’re thinking about it clearly. But why are we so highly strategic things that you have to be thinking about? And so we talked about on our phone, we were trying to create the next generation workforce, which is all the stem and steam all these advanced tech because this is this is only going to come further and further and we’re concerned about AI replacing us, well, what are these people gonna do? Well, they can well, they can do other things. You know, there’s other things you can do and then they can be a part of the ecosystem. But then we can also train them to create the AI is create the data for the eyes, maintain the eyes. You know, there’s a lot of things you can train people to do next generation workforce next generation entrepreneur. So we’re trying to Get the next set of people to create the next set of companies, whatever those are, and then we’re trying to do the next generation investor. So if you’re not powdering, the people that are going to invest in the next set of people, because they’re successful, then what are you doing?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
No idea. I think what I what I’d like to see is, you know, we create more role models, you know, about women and girls getting stem now, I think, you know, a lot of this and I think you probably know this too. There’s a lot of cultural bias against women being successful and independent in certain certain, you know, circles. Certain religions in certain cultures are very male dominated, and, you know, even the state I live in, in Utah, there’s still the man is in charge. And, and I can get into different you know, I could call out lots of different groups, but a lot of Orthodox groups don’t want women learning anything. And I think so there is a there are a lot of other cultural things that I think keep girls from learning things and discouraging and all I can say is I like to see more role models about what you’re doing. And I mean I’m living it with my own kids I want my girls to not say I think to me I want my kids to be absolutely successful and I want my kids to never have to be dependent or stuck in a situation where they can’t make a living on themselves so they want to be a stay at home mom with an engineering degree. That’s great. That’s a choice I mean, even when my wife laughter will medical school my wife we had to stay home for a couple of years before she went on to her career after she graduated from medical school because we had a sick one of our kids was very sick and and so but to me, I had no less respect for my wife and you know when she was you know being a stay at home mom and and we changed our life based on that and so to me, that’s how I view it is I want my kids to be have more options in life and and even think about like this right as a father and you have kids right? You know, you want the best for your kid right? In and to me. Let’s just be honest. Right on son who is a good earner and successful has a much better chance at having, let’s just say for lack of a better word, options when it comes to finding a spouse or a wife or you know, what have you going forward? Because they’re about they’re more attractive person, a better earner in the society is more likely to have more options. And, and I think it’s the same with a girl, you know, and to me, it’s like, you know, there’s some guys that don’t, you know, they’re still some caveman kind of guys that don’t want a smart wife, I disagree. I would I married up I’m first to say I was blessed, and I’m married way out of my league. And and you know, it’s been very good for us in. And I think I’ve learned a lot from my wife and I have a different perspective. So I’m more of a hands on problem solver. So my wife and I really balanced. We just had our 20th anniversary, too. So it’s working out so far. Thank you. And so and so to me, it’s like I just want those options and I wish that there were more role models out there showing that you know…

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com 49:00
I think girls have a lot more options. And just to you know, since I’m kind of in this, you know, in that space in the space of diversity in the space of diversity inclusion in the space of women. I mean, I’ve talked to many women, globally, like worldwide. And I think that the women are changing it for the women. And so I agree with you culturally, there’s still some, you know, things. And when we talk about things in a systemic way, when I say that this is systemic, it’s complacency. It’s the fact that you’re allowing it to go on and on and on and on continuously until the end of talk that’s that’s to me, was this something systemic is it’s not, you know, that it’s a system and it’s against, you know, the systemic part is complacency, the fact that no one does anything, everyone knows, no one says anything, no one does anything that creates problems that creates a systemic problem, period, whatever, whatever you want to label the problem at But I say that to say this, I think that, you know, globally women are really moving forward in many aspects, and it’s just not seen. And I think like, do you have, you know, role models are powerful and they’re important, but you have to ask yourself, like, Who are these role models? So like, when I saw the Hidden Figures, I actually knew the somebody who was related to to one of the Hidden Figures, but like, Who knew about that, like, I didn’t know, like, so the other the other part of it is, is to surface these people. And these pioneers and these women that have done so many things, and and show like, hey, that you have no limitation, like in like, I’ve never felt like personally I’ve ever had a limitation as to what I could do or not do. And I think sometimes we put limitations on ourselves, but I’ve never felt that my parents never told me like, hey, you’re limited because of XYZ, ABC like that. That was never a conversation in the household. don’t have that conversation with my son. He say, Man, you got unlimited what have you, Mom, I was afraid. I said, I don’t know why I mean, I didn’t do this, this this, this so like, what what made you think I was going to be different? Um, so I think like really, it’s a it’s your mindset and your limiting of yourself in the end. And you know, I have friends with lots of daughters and I said they, you know, they can be Unlimited, but really it’s a factor of the parents. I think your daughters will be unlimited because you guys you know, if from from our conversation, you’re very supportive, very loving, you know, they’re gonna see like, what is a real family? What is a mom and a dad? How does that really work? And I think like they’re gonna have no limitations, because part of it is just being clear on yourself and not being afraid of your capability. I think a lot of women are afraid of capability. I hear about this imposter syndrome. People said, if you have that, I’m like, No, no, that is like, you just do it. I’m an entrepreneur in the end like, I mean, you Gotta get over stuff like stuff happens, you fail, you know, things happen you failed stuff doesn’t work out. Okay, next. That’s that’s entrepreneurial difference in my mind.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
But I also think that’s part of the problem with our country with entrepreneurs and it’s even worse in places like Europe where they really don’t like entrepreneurs, which is interesting. Yes, I always tell I think we need to know man, we gotta have another conversation actually.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
Awesome. We will, no worries.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
But I definitely think that we don’t even at least with to public schools, we don’t teach things that are important like financial literacy or entrepreneurship. And I think part of the problem is that you have teachers that are financially illiterate and they’re not entrepreneurs so they don’t understand those things even with my welding program. I know I keep going back to that but it was I learned a lot I actually learned a lot.

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
I’m gonna I’m gonna counteract your your your point there because I have been in some schools and schools are starting it depends on where you are. And it really depends on the superintendent or like really the head top person in the school, because I’m in a couple of school districts where they were really trying to teach the kids entrepreneurship, expose them to entrepreneurship. A few years ago, I was mentoring some kids 2010 I was mentoring some kids and man, kids, kids have some amazing ideas. And they tell you like, Hey, I’m going to babysit. And then I’m going to hire my friends to babysit. And I said, well, is this just you gonna be babysitting? No, and I’m gonna charge this and then I’m gonna only take so many babies. And I was like, wow, these kids have so many. But I mean, or like somebody was trying to sell candy or canvas because they had this candy because their parents were making this can’t. I mean, it’s amazing. Kids haveamazing ideas. The thing that we need to do as adults is go, Well, look, these are amazing ideas and support them in their ideas, because they’re already afraid because you’re like a dis adult and they think, oh, you’re this adult and they’ve not gonna take me seriously. But it doesn’t mean you’re not serious. It just means that maybe you A little bit of boost and a little bit of confidence boosting like, Hey, this is just as good as ideas anybody else that the real question is, what are you gonna do about it now?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
They’re gonna call you. Barbara where can people find out more about you?

Barbara Bickham – WIFAXVC.com
Ah, so you can find out more about me on a couple of places. If you go to WWW dot with facts VC wi FX DC calm. That’s one place. That’s sort of fun. And then if you want to know about trailing you go to www. Trailing tra Li n com. That’s my blockchain advisory. Find out plenty about me there. All my social media is there. So I’m on all the social media, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, Twitter, I’m on everything.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Barbara, I’ve had a really good time today and I do appreciate you coming on the show. Hey, folks, is Rob McNealy make sure you check it out. Check us out on the web at RobMcNealy.com and hit that subscribe button and we’ll catch next time.

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Interview Transcript

Brad Michelson – Crypto Marketing & eToro Transcript

Brad Michelson - Crypto Marketing & eToro

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Hey folks Rob McNealy here. And today we’re talking to Brad Michelson. He is a crypto marketing guru based in New York. And today we’re going to learn all about the ins and outs of marketing in the crypto space. And I think you see this a lot with a lot of developer led projects out there that marketing seems to be the thing that developers hate a lot. But I want to get a Brad’s kind of input and his take on things. So Brad, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Brad Michelson – eToro
Doing great. Thanks for having me.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk with us. Marketing is something that it’s near and dear to my heart. And I think that in really for there to be crypto mass adoption, I think marketing, at least from the crypto side of things really needs to ramp up his game. And I want to kind of explore that a little bit with you today if possible, but but before we dive into kind of all this, you know, marketing stuff. Let’s talk a little bit about you. What’s your background and how did you get into crypto marketing?

Brad Michelson – eToro
So I originally started out in e commerce marketing, so I was at an agency for a few years and learn the ins and outs of paid media over there. ended up leaving as the director of strategy at the agency went in house to an e commerce brand and didn’t have the best time and then I when I was looking for a job from there, I found my first crypto company so I jumped into that. Two feet forward, which was pretty fun. I was at helped launch dex which was really cool and obviously a big learning experience. It was after, you know, the Ico boom, it to a degree like the the place I had worked had already completed their Ico so it was fully funded and they’re building out the platform. And it was also right around the time when Facebook and all the social platforms started banning crypto ads. So that’s one of the biggest differentiators between traditional marketing and crypto marketing is that you don’t have a lot of the same levers as you might elsewhere.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So what do you do about that? You say your crypto project, how do you get your brand out there? How do you market a crypto project effectively?

Brad Michelson – eToro
You know, a lot of it relies on social media and it’s really community building and not in the way that Ico projects would create a telegram group and just like get as many people in there as possible and use it as as like a pumping mechanism. It’s not really like that at all, at least anymore. It’s a lot more reliant on word of mouth and just general community sentiment, being able to go on Twitter, having your brand post something, you know, you’re not necessarily being like, outrageous, but you can just post it in an Oculus. bullish tweet and you’ll get hundreds of likes out of it just because of the goodwill that you’ve, you’ve grown in the community. So a lot of it is just sharing and echoing the sentiment of your target audience. But on top of that, you still have to make gestures that deer, the brands to the community. So with some people it’s being you know, a really approachable brand with very easy to understand. messaging that maybe is like a really easy onboarding to the ecosystem, for example, lolly they do a fantastic job with that. Other times It’s, you know, something like what we do at etoro. Or we’ll work with, you know, a famous celebrity or something like that. And we’ll do a commercial with them. And that way we’re, you know, bringing in more average consumers into the the ecosystem. But I think every brand has their own different approach. And it’s sort of the key really is just finding what makes the most sense for the people that want to use your product and expanding that as much as you can.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So I was around when the Ico craze was going nuts. We started two and a half years ago with Tosca, and it was interesting because we could never even get an ad, you know, placed with any of the social media platforms out there primarily, you know, Facebook and stuff. But that seems to still be kind of the problem. And in the last two and a half years, I mean, the Ico world is largely dead, at least in the United States right now. The the scam pump and dump groups are mostly You know, quiet at least right now, though they’ll probably return when you know, the next Bull Run kind of jumps up. So the question I would have with you is, why is there such a still a blanket, you know, community standards problem with crypto related stuff on the major platforms? Why are they still banning it? The space is so much different and more mature now than it was a two and a half years ago. You got any insight of my why that might be?

Brad Michelson – eToro
I think it’s a risk thing. I think that that there were a bunch of lawsuits around the time of the Ico boom, both to the ad platforms and you know, not necessarily just Facebook and Twitter, but predominantly them, as well as other platforms where people are saying, I saw this advertisement on your platform. I assumed it was legit. And it turns out it was a huge scam. I think that everyone by now has noticed the the increase in attention on not just content across these social platforms, but the you know, whether they’re offensive or whatever else or they’re predatory, there’s rules on tons and tons of different industries. And obviously, finances is a big part of that. And that extends into things like predatory loans. And payday lenders can’t necessarily advertise on Facebook or I think even Google, you can’t advertise those products anymore. So unfortunately, crypto is still in one of those categories. But we have seen a little bit of movement that hopefully over the next little while this will start loosening up a bit. There have been rumors for the last little while.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, it was interesting. I saw today on my social media that there was a couple social media content people that said they got locked out of their Twitter accounts, which I thought that was interesting. Then and then most of the stuff they post is not what I would call spammy or shilling by any stretch of the imagination. than anything, and it seems like it’s pretty alive and well. And I’ve seen this where a URL will, you know, be banned from, you know, Facebook or Instagram and there’s like, zero, you can’t even appeal. There’s not even a process. There’s not a button to push. And so it’s interesting. I, you know, there’s a lot of rumors out there, especially among the conspiracy theorists that, you know, they’re they’re trying to, you know, head off any competition, you know, at least on the Facebook side would like a Libra out there, for instance. So they don’t like the competition from other crypto projects. I mean, do you think there’s any merit to something like that? It seems it seems a little out there for me, but I was just wondering if you’ve heard anything along those lines.

Brad Michelson – eToro
I really doubt it. You know, Libra, especially at that time was so far away from even launching, and it’s even far away now from launching, and it’s just not really, it’s not really also what that business models competing with. So I just don’t think that they’re related personally.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So over the last last couple years, it’s been interesting, you know, watching crypto marketing from the inside as a project. You know, we, you know, there’s so many stories that I’ve heard about at least experienced myself, where during the Ico boom, you know, just to get an interview on a podcast like this might cost $10,000 or more depending on what it is. Is that changing? Now is that Yeah, easier,

Brad Michelson – eToro
way easier. I don’t think I’ve seen a podcast that charges to interview in a while now, which is a really good change. You know, that it was extremely hard to get on, you know, any of those big YouTube channels or, or whatever it was in 2017. And then it moved into podcasts a couple years later. Obviously, the space for sponsoring all these shows has expanded significantly. There’s a ton of money that goes into that. And, you know, I’ve been sponsoring podcasts and influencers for a few years now and I just think it’s going more legit. There was a time where it was like wild west amateurism, and it’s finally matured into like a legit marketing marketplace kind of for sponsorships.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You know, it’s really kind of funny because when we started Originally, I couldn’t get on an interview. Because we didn’t do an Ico we had no cash to spend, you know, lots of money to get on, though, actually, it’s kind of funny, because one of the reasons I started this podcast, because I said, I’m not gonna charge and I never have I’ve never even taken a sponsor. I don’t do this to monetize. I do this because I genuinely like the industry. And I like to talk to cool and smart people that are doing cool things because I learned from people like you coming on the show. So I always thought it was funny because this whole podcast was a response to that. And originally, when I started this, I didn’t really want to do this. But I do like talking to really cool people. And so it’s just interesting, you know, kind of seeing it, but When I’m trying to get interviewed, I’m seeing it. It’s a lot different now than it was two and a half years ago. And I think that’s a good thing for the industry that the advertising the marketing piece is starting to become more formal, I guess, and a little more legitimate and honest. And I think that’s good.

Brad Michelson – eToro
I think there’s a reason for that, too. I think that with a lot of crypto companies, like when I started at my first crypto company, most of the opportunities that were available were companies, Ico companies that were gonna pay you in their tokens. And this was before the Icos. So they were like pre mining tokens to give their employees and in the hopes that the token will pump at the Ico and you’ll get paid off by that, but then we’re going to pay you otherwise. Now, you it’s you’re going to be really hard pressed to find that that’s not really you’re not going to really find that anywhere. A lot of crypto companies now are at least reasonably well funded. So They can pay you normal salaries, some more than others. You know, these things come with benefits. And there’s HR along with it. And these are real companies as opposed to in that 2017 2018 range where it was very bootstrapped, and like semi real company and people were really leaning into the whole decentralized company thing, which I don’t know necessarily if it materialized in the way that they originally presented it. But the way that it’s become now is his own unique thing, which is really exciting. But it’s nice to see that it’s formalized in that way and with those budgets for the businesses come budgets to to hire legit professionals. So you know, most of the people at most of the projects you’re aware of the big ones at least, they didn’t come from crypto, a lot of those people aren’t crypto native. Even my team there’s half of us probably aren’t crypto people I’m lucky enough to have been in since 2012 is when I discovered it. So there’s, you know, this whole back catalogue of knowledge that I can pass down to my team and to other teams. But it’s a double edged sword, right? Because people come in with traditional marketing experience or traditional finance experience, whatever it is, and then they got to catch up on the the finer points, and especially in marketing, you know, the audience is so sensitive to certain signals or values, that there aren’t a lot of opportunities to screw up and figure it out afterwards. So at first, it’s a bit of a learning curve, but it ends up being huge for the the attracting talent in our industry in the long run.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So you said earlier and I know this to be true as well is that there’s a lot you know, the the tools that you have for growing are a lot more limited, because, you know, you just can’t go say, Oh, we need 10,000 users. To download our app that’s, you know, between five and 10 bucks a user, whatever it is, just go buy the ads and boom, you know, we build it out. You know, that’s not really something you can do with crypto very easily. So when you have an when you’re hiring, you know, marketing professionals and you bring them on your own team that, you know, maybe aren’t, you know, crypto natives, but they come from a more traditional marketing background. Have you found that they see that as a challenge? Or do you think they get more frustrated that they don’t have as many tools in their toolbox?

Brad Michelson – eToro
Depends on their background, if if they had like a pure paid marketing background like I did when I was younger, then it would be a little head spinning because you’re used to having a fashion brand that you just run ads on Instagram on. And you can test you know, a million different iterations of copy and creatives. And there’s a whole universe within within that realm of marketing, but it really forces you outside your comfort zone. It’s not that paid media disappears necessarily, right. There’s ad networks. outside of just Google and Facebook, and the obvious people, you know, buy sell ads is one that you see relatively often. There’s a few others. And you can also do, you know, native placements within a bunch of different websites, like you can buy native placements on Yahoo or, you know, CNBC or TechCrunch, even. But they don’t necessarily come with the performance metrics, or the performance history that Google or Facebook might. So someone in that scenario, initially, in theory would be a little shocked. And there’s a bit of a learning curve, but you’d hope that that person would be able to, you know, dive in and come up with some new best practices for themselves.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So that’d be things like, you know, programmatic and those kind of ad buys that you’re talking about there that which are not the normal Google AdWords kind of thing, but, you know, dedicated ad networks that are already placed on specific websites.

Brad Michelson – eToro
Right, exactly. And then the The whole universe of app advertising, which is a whole other thing,

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
That’s interesting, tell me about that.

Brad Michelson – eToro
So in the same way that there are display ad networks on whatever website you’re on, there are also those really annoying ads that show up in apps, like when you’re playing like a puzzle game or something and you lose, and then you have to watch an ad for like 15 seconds, those kind of ad ad networks where they’re gonna get placed in games or news, news apps, or whatever it else, whatever else it is. And they’re not necessarily run through Google. So they might have less strict rules in order to attract people like crypto companies or other smaller industries that are not as easily accessible through Google.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So what have you found to be the most effective, you know, tool out there for getting out to as far as normal advertising? Would it be the app advertising? Would it be the programmatic? Which one Have you found has the best, which one of those has the best audience that are receptive to the crypto messaging?

Brad Michelson – eToro
It really depends on what your objective is and what kind of marketing you’re doing. So if it’s brand marketing or performance at etoro, we’re lucky enough to actually be able to run ads on Facebook and Twitter in the main platforms, because globally were more widely recognized as a broker. So that’s what most people know us for overseas, but in the US for crypto only right now. So we’re able to take advantage of that relationship with those publishers. Outside of that, you know, it’s it’s the typical stuff, when you’re marketing to a niche industry like we are. It’s thinking about where are these people most often? So you go to Twitter, okay, well, we can’t necessarily run ads on Twitter. You know, you can post organically as much as you can. But what’s next so what’s next is podcasts, advertising or YouTube advertising. natively within the videos with the publishers. But there’s also the influencer sponsorships. And you’re seeing that get more and more popular now, whether they’re through networks, like what block works group is doing or whether the brand reaches out individually to individual influencers, which is my preference and what we do. So that’s one of the easiest and arguably most affordable ways to get wider reach within your niche.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So say, a community project. Now how what would you say is the best thing for a community project that may not have that Ico backing that big bankroll that we had with a lot of these products? You know, two, three years ago? It was interesting. I mean, you saw people throw money, like really big amounts of money at ridiculousness. As far as marketing goes, I saw and it seems like ROI to me has always been an important thing. I was just you know, curious. What would you recommend? For like, you know, these community projects that don’t have that, how would you deal with those kind of projects instead of something that was really had a big bankroll? And, you know, maybe VC funding, for example? Sure.

Brad Michelson – eToro
Well, I think that you got to think about it in some degree, similar to a brand selling a product. So who is where is your product for sale? Okay, so we’re thinking about crypto exchanges, right? So, you might want to spend a lot of your time getting more familiar with the marketing and PR teams of those exchanges so that you have better like co branding opportunities and relationships with those people. You can have them add your brand and your token into more marketing materials and therefore, expose the token brand to more people that way. And, you know, marketing is really just a game of eyeballs at the end of the day, whether it’s consciously or subconsciously The more people see things, the more they’re aware of a brand, the more opportunity there is for them to purchase or participate within the brand. So that’s probably a place that I would start with first because, you know, when people see people shilling, like non top 10 assets now, people just assume it’s some sort of, whether it’s a bot network or whatever else it is. I see this in my replies all the time. But if you can integrate organically with a provider of your services, it makes it a lot easier for you.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So one of the things that I’ve seen and it was interesting, as someone whose US based your US based is that crypto is like a global thing from day one. You know, and so the exchanges are global, the projects are global. The, the basis for many of these projects are global in nature. How do deal with that as a project, like for instance, marketing. You know, a lot of times, you know, US base industry might be just mostly focused on that, you know, the the US, for instance. But how do you deal with the global niss and the messaging globally for any kind of crypto project?

Brad Michelson – eToro
This is a challenge that I think most crypto companies discovered really early on and when you look at when we keep going in 2017 2018, but it really was a craze, you know, people are not for people that are relatively new in this space. It’s not that people are playing up what it was like during the the boom, it was as exaggerated as it sounds when people talk about it. So there are all these projects that you know, started out us base or started out UK base and then suddenly they had to hire like a community team in multiple regions of Asia because suddenly that catches on and one of their exchanges over there. And then all of a sudden, maybe a market dries up. And they have to ditch those and only really focus on two regions. I recently had a call with someone who’s a part of a fairly large defy project. And they were saying that over the last year, they’ve cut teams in certain regions of the world. And they’re really just focusing in the US and a couple other places right now, because that’s where their customers are at the moment. And really, that’s what it comes down to. It’s where the majority of your users in the case of a token project, where’s the majority of your volume? And what can you do with those people to increase the brand awareness or your volume if that’s what your KPI Your goal is there?

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, it’s been interesting as a project right, and you know, I’m not here to shill #TUSC all day, you know, I love #TUSC but it’s interesting because it’s really we’re US based, ee’re not an IC O, so we’re not a legal security. So we’re one of probably a couple dozen projects that eventually be able to legally be traded on us exchanges. The problem is it’s really hard to get on a US exchange. So most of the exchanges we’re on at least right now are in Asia. I mean, there’s just seems like we’re the most of them are right now. But it’s interesting having to go through and negotiate with all these different in that and it’s different by which country in Asia to their the way they interact, the way they negotiate, or in some cases don’t negotiate. And it’s an interesting kind of trying to navigate that, like, I mean, I got a background in business. I got an MBA for whatever that’s worth these days, but, you know, but it’s like International Business one on one day one. Yep. And it’s like, I got to go read a book on you know, negotiating in Asia and because I just never had to do that before. So it’s been pretty fascinating. And it’s actually been really fun too, though, because I’ve met some amazing people. Around the world through my project. And so I think that’s what I really like about doing this. But it’s also sometimes really frustrating is, you know, not understanding some of the, you know, just the more cultural nuances just because there’s so many you have to be worried about something. And you know, it’s interesting, because in a typical American, right, you just kind of think all Asians are the same. Well, they’re not they’re very, very culturally very different from one another. And so, only time ago I did I used to work for a Japanese country company. And back when I was a corporate Guy 20 years ago, and you know, I get how the Japanese work because I work for a Japanese company I worked for an ally Japanese were but they think and act and do business very differently than say people in China do. It’s just totally night and day and, And to me, that’s been very fascinating. But is for you guys even like with etoro? Are you essentially then hiring different marketing people or ground teams in each country that you think you’re going to have a big presence in?

Brad Michelson – eToro
So basically, the way it works with us is that we have regional offices. So, for example, I work in the US office, I run the US marketing team. But there’s a completely different marketing team in the UK, for we have one region that’s most of Europe that there’s one team working on. There is a team in China that only works on China, etc. So we’re a little bit luckier because we’re at the scale now where we can have all these regional teams. But it’s not that easy for everyone else. So it’s kind of a little bit about prioritization based on business goals.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So do you guys all coordinate though, all the different marketing teams around the world to so you still have a similar message or really staying on the consistent? You know, focus when you’re doing the marketing, or is it is it then just regionalised? Like, is there one central brand messaging and then it’s just, you know, regionalised in a certain way, that makes more sense for those places?

Brad Michelson – eToro
Yes, kinda. So basically, there’s like a central brand to etoro That’s managed globally, or at HQ, we just call it globally. There’s like a brand book basically with the way we like to talk about things, the colors, we use the gradient styles that we do in our graphics and things like that. But every region is a little bit different, right? So the coffee is going to differ. You know, the way that the UK talks about crypto would be different than we do. There are things that we’re allowed to do that they’re not allowed to do, for example, we like to throw incentives to customers to have them come in, but in the UK, they’re not allowed to do that legally. So there’s a lot of differences and they really leave it up to us to make it our own, which is a really fun part of the job.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, and your experience, at least, you know, coming from the more traditional side of marketing to the crypto, what would you see what are some of the the horror stories that you’ve seen out there in the marketing of crypto?

Brad Michelson – eToro
Yeah, I think a lot of it goes back back to how there was a lot of like amateurism at the beginning and it wasn’t like, purposeful negligence or anything like that. It was that most of the people, most of the personalities were just people, right? They, they had never taken a sponsorship before, they had never done any of these things. So sometimes you’d like sign a deal with someone for six months. And then two weeks later, they’re like, sorry, I decided I don’t want to do this with you anymore. I signed with your competition. So stuff like that is really annoying, but it happens from time to time. And, you know, you’re not going to burn a bridge. So it’s whatever it is. Other times it’s, you know, you if you think back, you can probably think of at least a couple companies that partnered with a project that ended up being a scam of some sort, right, like whether it’s listing a token or whatever it is. So I think that a lot of the differences between then and now is just maturity and growing into like a respectable industry.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So what would you say your best advice would be to new companies say, VC backed project, what would be the best piece of advice you could give them in the beginning?

Brad Michelson – eToro
Invest in your brand and your brand’s voice. So that applies to social media, the way you talk about things, the way you present the values of the company. Because at the end of the day, the way that our community works is that if you don’t follow the simple rules of, of the the basic tenants of centralized currencies and whatever way you want to interpret those things, digital currencies, you’re really never going to take off, right? Because you’re not going to be able to capture the attention of the influencers, who might share your content and bring more attention to your brand. It’s a lot more of an uphill battle. You don’t need necessarily to invest in a paid media. A team or a paid media agency, which is kind of backwards to a lot of people’s experiences. So having a strong brand team, which includes a strong UX asset on board, and then making a product that’s easy to use, I think we’re finally approaching the days of no longer having to deal with apps or daps, or platforms that you need to read like a manual for because the first time there were a lot of exchanges where you kind of had to read steps on a forum or whatever to complete a purchase or a trade. And thankfully, those days are now appeared to be behind us.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Thank goodness.

Brad Michelson – eToro
Yeah, right.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So Brad, where can people find out about more about you?

Brad Michelson – eToro
You can find me on Twitter @BradMichelson.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, I appreciate you coming on the show today. And anytime you got something interesting, you want to talk about, you’re more than welcome to come back. Sounds great. appreciate you having me. Thank you. I am Rob McNealy, this is the Rob McNealy program. Check us out on the web at Rob McNealy calm and we will catch you next time.

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Audio Interview
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Scott Cunningham – Crypto & Things Transcript

Scott Cunningham - Crypto & Things

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Now, welcome to the program. Hey folks, Rob McNealy here and today I am excited. I’m talking to Scott Cunningham. He is the social media influencer host of the crypto things podcast. He’s got a huge following all over the internet. He talks a lot about a lot of different crypto stuff, a lot of the business stuff. So I’d like to welcome to the show. Scott, how are you today?

Scott Cunningham
I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me on.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
I appreciate you coming on. I’ve enjoyed speaking to you in the past and I think our audience will gain a lot of valuable knowledge hearing about you or from you. So before we get started, kind of can you give a little bit of background about how you got into the crypto And how you got into publishing about crypto stuff.

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, absolutely. So I unfortunately got in just before the big crash in at the end of 2017. I invested a bunch, I was just getting into it. And and then the big crash happened. So I realized I wasn’t the greatest that investing. But I was curious to see what other ways blockchain could be used. And as a social media marketer, I thought, you know, how could this be? How could this work for social media, so not long after of, you know, looking around for a while I found steam. And that was kind of the only platform at the time. So I started posting on there figuring what you know what it was all about. And then I realized there was a lack of educational material on like, how to use it, and just like teaching people about the actual different platforms. So from there, I started doing tutorials I started just like learning A lot more. And then maybe about six months after that I started to expand and look for other platforms. And since then I’ve just spent a lot of time exploring new platforms, doing reviews, and interviewing different people from those companies and organizations.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So of all the different platforms that you’ve kind of been looking at, you mentioned that you started off on the social media marketing side. How are the crypto related publishing platforms different than the traditional older school kind of social media publishing platforms?

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, so there is a range I would say of like, how centralized how decentralized, how much are they actually using the blockchain and posting on the blockchain? So there’s definitely a spectrum. So for example, real quick publish yo x is somewhat centralized in that they have like moderators, and they’re not posting to the blockchain, but they are crypto monetize where You can earn cryptocurrency from the platform, not so. So there’s a there’s a big discrepancy where people think that you have to give other people crypto on these platforms where most of the time you’re actually earning it from the platform and you don’t have to rely on like donations from other people. And, and publish Oh x is really good for that. And then if we look at, you know, on the other side of things like something like hive or library, where all the content exists on the blockchain, and it’s completely decentralized, and so, so that’s kind of like the two sides of the spectrum. And, you know, there’s many in between but the the big difference between most blockchain platforms is the sort of values that go into why they were created, and a lot of that is transparency, open source, free speech. As I mentioned before, decentralized Which is just taking a look getting some of the control away from the platforms and dispersing more of the control. And the way that the platform is used amongst all of the people. So that, like, for example, again, hive and steam, don’t have moderators, a lot of the moderation is done by the community. So that’s another example of decentralization. And kind of the big thing is that, I mean, another thing is censorship to that’s one of the biggest motivations right now why people are switching over to new platforms, because they are very free speech. I mean, I will say this, right? Not every blockchain platform is, you know, free speech focus. And it’s not like they’re always going to be all of these things. But that’s generally why a lot of them are created, and a lot of them do follow that, you know, those values. The rule is not, you know, there obviously are exceptions to the rule. But but that’s kind of the The main reason why a lot of these platforms exist and, and what makes them extremely different from legacy platforms and and then aside from that monetization, it’s very, very challenging for people to monetize on regular platforms. I’ve been posting on YouTube for almost three years, and I haven’t made anything I still can’t even start to monetize yet. And if we look at a platform like library, for example, the very first day as a viewer or a creator, you could start earning from the very first day. So I think there is there’s a lot of people who are empowered by that. And when you see that you can start earning from day one, you actually have value that you can extract and provide and actually get, like both sides get the value. That’s the best part, right? If you’re watching or creating, you’re going to earn something and you kind of get that value back for your own time that you’ve invested and the attendance That you’ve put to those platforms.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So you’d say there’s like kind of two categories of interest. One would be the censorship that a lot of these legacy platforms are obviously exerting over the content from the publishers. But the other side is the monetization side, which cryptocurrency seems to make that a lot easier. Let’s back up a little bit. Why are the legacy platforms doing those two things? Do you have any insights on the monetization piece or the censorship piece?

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, so I mean, I mean, quite simply, we can we could say with monetization, they want more money, right? So if advertisers are advertising on your content, regardless, if you have higher restrictions to actually be an advertiser, like to have those advertisements and get paid from them, then YouTube is going to keep more of the money at the end of the day. The second reason is, YouTube has become like, I’m just going to use YouTube usually as an example, because it’s most well known for censorship. But they they want. They’re beholden to their advertisers. So if advertisers say, you know, we don’t want our videos showing up on this or on this, they continually keep making those changes, and they make the allowed spectrum of content narrower and narrower. Every single year, just in the past year, we saw changes with commercial viability where essentially YouTube said, if we deem that your channel is not commercially viable, which almost any channel could be said to be that if you’re talking about something that they don’t want you to talk about, or you’re not even able to monetize yet, like myself, technically, I’m not commercially viable. So they could terminate my channel at any time just under those grounds. And then in January, we saw the changes with the compact which essentially made it so that You can’t make video content that is directed towards children. And it was further advertising. It was all around their advertising. But the consequences of that are all of the younger youtubers can’t make money anymore because obviously their their audience is is other young people as well. So people doing gaming videos, kids who do reviews, there’s like five year olds who do reviews of toys, and they had big channels, because obviously they’re doing it with their, their parents are their family. But not all of those are being demonetised child celebrities can’t make money anymore. Lots of things have changed. And what we’ve seen because of that, is a lot of content has aged up on YouTube. So people who previously made content for kids are now making more adult content and and it’s very, very weird. The the range of what is allowed, right because YouTube’s basically saying with these changes that we want you to make your content more adult because if it could be directed to a younger audience, then it might not be allowed to be monetized. So now everyone is like, introducing like, like trying to make their stuff more adult casually swearing more and stuff like that. But then on the other side, you might hit the point of not being commercially viable because you’re too adult. So they keep making that that spectrum more and more challenging to fit within. And, and when they do, you know, strikes or terminate channels. It’s very, you don’t really have much time to react and it’s kind of just like it’s done. And you can try to email with them, but usually, not a lot happens there. So we saw a lot of that happen with the crypto purge, but luckily, a lot of them, a lot of the channels and things were restored. But you know, there’s a lot of people who still have like two strikes now and They’re really concerned that they might get kicked off at any time from like YouTube.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You know, I don’t like to go down necessarily like the conspiracy theorist route and you know, as well as I do that there’s a lot of people in this space that automatically go down to like the it’s a big conspiracy. And I’m not saying that conspiracies don’t exist, right. But I don’t necessarily believe there is diabolical as people want them to believe they are. But it definitely seems to me that I look at these the censorship and the D monetization. It’s almost like a typical lifestyle or lifecycle of like a large corporation, right? The bigger these you know, these players get, the more rigid they become the more antiquated, the lower the slower they move, the slower they adapt, and ultimately, it opens up opportunities for startups. And you know, because they’ve created like this vacuum now I have a friend of mine that runs Do you are you familiar with Utah Gun Exchange or UGETube.com?

Scott Cunningham
No I’m not.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
It’s a it’s a it’s a gun related video streaming site I’m friends with the owner of it. And we have a lot of conversations about all this kind of stuff because he’s a big believer in free speech and and things and and it’s interesting to me it’s at it’s it’s like this is creating these openings now for these startups that even three years ago you couldn’t consider it there was no chance to these big channels would even consider you know, these big YouTubers or what have you wouldn’t consider moving platforms because they had a really good thing going three years ago. I myself also I can’t monetize on YouTube at all. It just doesn’t even make sense. And I’ve had my YouTube channel for like a decade. And you know, I’m just for all the same reasons you’re struggling with. They’re just wanting to consider it. Whereas platforms like library you know, like Day one, you can start making money. And and I think ultimately that’s going to drive a big chunk of the market to these new platforms. And I wonder if the corporations understand that’s what they’re going through. This is like a pretty common like, lifecycle problem that a lot of big companies have you think they worried about it? Do you think they understand this is happening? Or do you think they’re just so blinded by their own little missions that they’re not even paying attention?

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, I mean, here’s the thing, like, I think they know, but then it comes down to, okay, how much of our money would we really be willing or our revenue or income? How much of that would we be willing to then sacrifice and put into, you know, making a cryptocurrency or, or even just making monetization easier again, how much would they really be willing to cut? And do they think in the long run that that will work? I mean, from our side, we think No, we think they’re going to go out of business because of this, but they might look at it like, okay, like these other platforms have a million users, 2 million users, this isn’t a problem. This isn’t a problem. That’s probably what like blockbuster was thinking at at the beginning. But you know, as they get further and further down the rabbit hole, or or, you know, too far into wherever they’re going, I think they’re going to maybe notice in hindsight, but I don’t know if it’ll be too late. By that time. You know, an interesting conspiracy theory that I thought, like, I find it interesting is that YouTube was trying to get rid of all the crypto youtubers so that they could then come out with YouTube coin or something like that. And then it’d be no one who would be critically able to like, analyze it or have an opinion on it. I thought that was pretty funny and interesting if that did happen. But yeah, I mean, the problem is then they get to this point where it’s like It just doesn’t seem it’s not even in there. I don’t even think they’re looking at blockchain. I don’t think there’s a lot of people in there who understand it or value it. And, you know, even if people from YouTube or twitch decide to make a blockchain while they already have a, for example, like I don’t want to knock a specific blockchain on your podcast, but I’ll say this, a co founder from YouTube and a co founder from twitch left and made a new blockchain, but there’s a lot of problems with it that are similar to the problems with YouTube. So I don’t think if they did make a cryptocurrency or blockchain, that it would actually be what people are looking for. And I think it would still be just as centralized, you know, all the same issues that they’re having, you know, they would still censor and they wouldn’t pay the cryptocurrency to specific people based on you know, political views or whatever it might be. I think they would still have all of these same problems. So they wouldn’t be able to effectively implement the blockchain or cryptocurrency in the way that other platforms are doing in the way that would make sense. Because they would be kind of skirting all the values and the reasons to even have it where they could just continue doing monetization in a database. And maybe that’s what they’re thinking now, but I’m not totally sure, obviously.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. Like, Gab is another social media platform that forked a couple of their platforms. And they kind of cater more to the kind of alt right kind of world. And for those that are not all right, but on Gab, I’m not trying to December from under the bus. But it’s interesting, though, that the founder of Gab is also very, and one hand he’s very pro free speech. But on the other hand, he’s got his own very strange look at different things and how he wants to have people on this platform which is kind of funny.

Scott Cunningham
When you get into like the the Gab and anti porn kind of debacle.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
It’s just like really? You know, you can talk about all the Jews and the Zionists and all the other stuff and but but porns No, no, it’s like, Man people got priorities issues. But that’s I do.

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, yeah, no, sir I do have I do have an interesting opinion on on on that because I do fully respect free speech, but I don’t know if I would consider pornography free speech and, you know, I’m no I totally understand the argument from both sides though. But the way that I would look at it, or the way that I’ve sort of approached this is free speech is anything that you can say or do in a public square that is legal Can you have sex or be nude and do all that kind of stuff in a public square? I’m not sure could you legally put a pornographic in image on a town bulletin board? I don’t think so. You know that that’s the way that I look at it. And I think it makes sense sort of what he’s doing. But he’s making a religious argument. That’s the problem. I think it was his like premise. That was the problem. He wasn’t saying, Oh, I don’t actually think this is free speech. So I don’t think this is like a problem for social media. He was saying, This is like, immoral or so like, I get that. I think that’s that’s kind of the issue that he went about it. But my personal view, is that like, I would say that it’s not necessarily the same thing, but I can understand why people would feel that it is. And I fully respect to the free speech argument that all speech is is free speech.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Oh, absolutely. And I’m not giving an opinion one way or the other on it. I just think it’s kind of ironic, but the but the whole need I think it’s there’s a little bit of hypocrisy when you form a whole network. That’s supposed to be anti censorship. Then you have censorship, you know, for whatever reason, you know, and I think that’s that’s the interesting part of this. There’s a big spectrum out there, I guess, with some of the stuff what people are willing to tolerate and what they want don’t want with these different platforms. I have to say that, you know, even with the big social media outlets out there, like Facebook and the Twitter’s of the world, you know, it’s interesting, like they have a real issue with crypto. And I understand, you know, two and a half years ago, when there was so many, arguably illegal Icos and there were so many scams, I can understand why you may not want that on your platform as far as advertising, right, I can see the argument but things have changed a lot. The whole market has matured a lot. There’s a lot more clarity, even you know, from a year ago, there’s a lot more clarity in the market right now than there was you know, a couple years ago, but it’s interesting, like there’s no rhyme or Reason, or it seems like there’s a lot of arbitrary kind of decision making on what’s good and what’s bad when it comes to these platforms. So for instance, on Facebook, not too long ago, I posted something to a regular URL. It was an update for a project for a crypto project. It wasn’t spam, it wasn’t selling anything. It was just a straight up announcement. And somebody in one of the groups post, you know, obviously, they reported it for whatever reason. And now that URL to that update, like the whole domain is completely banned from both Instagram and Facebook. And there’s no way to appeal. There’s there’s no way to email anybody to appeal it. It just says this violates the our code or community standards, and that’s it, you can’t even respond. And it’s like, that’s devastating. That could be devastating economically to a lot of different projects, a lot of different things. And so it’s like, I think that’s where a lot of people get frustrated is that they don’t know what the rules were. Are Yeah, there’s Yeah, the guidance is just so generic and so arbitrary. And you got some, you know, sensor in some room in some warehouse somewhere going, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And and you don’t have any control over it. And I’m not a big fan of, you know, making these platforms, you know, utilities, you know, there’s a lot of call for that, right? Where they want to make it so the government can regulate it. And, you know, individuals don’t have, you know, control over their businesses anymore. But on the other end, I think from a customer service standpoint, I think they’re gonna hurt themselves long term. And I do think that’s where these other publishing platforms are going to thrive.

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And to that point, minds.com if you ever used the URL in any way, even to the point where I had a YouTube video that said mines.com in the title that I couldn’t post to Facebook. So if and this was for a good year and a half, I believe, where if you tried to post anything to Facebook, it would say, this is a I can’t remember exactly what it said. But it said like you need to type in a CAPTCHA for this to actually post. And then if anyone would tried to share it or do anything comment, you had to type in a CAPTCHA type in a CAPTCHA. So no one’s doing that. And, and even if you did, I got it was to the point where I would send myself sometimes I would send myself a message on Facebook just so I can get it on my phone. I send myself a message to one of my own posts on mines. And then I look at my phone and it’s like message removed from your messages for violating the guidelines. And I’m like, I can’t even send myself a private message that includes a mines URL, but you know, now they just allow it. So for all I know, one person reported it a year ago. That’s all it took for a full year of completely blocking out this, this one site. And, yeah, it’s crazy. It really just seems like on legacy platforms. It’s not about the rules anymore. It’s about who’s offended. How many reports are there on that thing? Because a lot of times, it’s like, Where’s the actual violation? It’s like, Well, a lot of people were upset about this and it’s like, okay, and I reviewed the community guidelines on Facebook about like a year ago. And I remember there was this huge outcry when Facebook changed part of their community guidelines to say something along the lines of if someone is determined to be I can’t remember exactly what it was but it was just like a something individual maybe like a dangerous or or something. But but it was by the news, not by like law or anything like that. They would excuse any kind of like illegal thing on Facebook so like if if someone was claimed to be such and such people on Facebook were allowed to give death threats and all this stuff that is otherwise illegal, but they were accepted for you know all this stuff and I think it was actually around the time of the Covington kids and I think that’s why cuz there was a lot of celebrities saying things like openly calling further death like like very popular blue check verified million follower Twitter users were saying things like put them all back into school and burn the whole school down and those tweets were allowed to stay whereas tweets that say things like I don’t know. Like Laura Loomer, I think was the one who said but but is he a man or is she a man though or something like that? But are you a man though it was something about gender and and her whole count was like deleted instantly where someone can make open death threats, and then they get their stuff can stay up. So it’s very bias and it’s very, it’s very ad hoc, there’s no real baseline of rules or standards that people can refer to. And that’s why a lot of people want these new solutions because the rules are more clear cut, or it’s kind of just like open free speech, everyone kind of free for all because either of those are better than at any point you can have all of your progress in all of your money investment, everything taken away, because I’m sure those people who have tons of followers have probably done ads on Twitter. If you’ve done ads on Facebook, you know, people have invested money into these on top of, you know, years and years of time. And then that could all just be taken away. Really like just just like that and and there’s like barely any appeal process or anything to try to get that back. So yeah, it’s a it’s it’s pretty crazy what they’re doing online. Legacy platforms.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
You know, it seems to me like, there’s just a lot of political virtue signaling coming from these corporations. And I know it’s kind of controversial, but the gun issue, right, like there’s a big chain called Dick’s Sporting Goods down here in the States. And they pulled all their guns out of the stores, you know, and they lost like their quarterly filings last year have been like they’ve lost hundreds of millions of dollars. And it’s interesting to me is that I tell people, I really missed the days when I didn’t know the politics of the companies that I bought things from. Like, I like that, you know, because I just want good service. Like if I want to buy something, give me good service, but it seems like in the last couple of years, and I think it’s probably in the last three years, especially but really the last two years is that it seems like there’s all these like left leaning companies that I didn’t know they’re left leaning until recently have just come out of the woodwork to like start basically, I hate the But virtue signaling they’re, you know, they’re like all of them. It’s like the gun you know? It’s like sales force comm fired all their gun dealers Shopify the shopping cart sell software fired all the gun related kind of dealers off their site I mean I don’t understand why like a sales you know CRM tool company cares if a gun related sporting goods company uses their software or not like that to me is just insane and you know the the business guy and he’s, you know starts asking questions like is this good for shareholders kind of thing but I also look at it from the business standpoint that there’s opportunities now because of that and I just don’t understand like, you know, you hear with jack right with Twitter everybody in the crypto space loves jack for some reason and I don’t know why. Because of cash app but but you look at how jack treats krypto on Twitter, you know, in Twitter ads and things like that. And it’s like he is not a friend of decentralization at all. You know, and in fact, if you look at most of these legacy platforms, decentralization destroys them, in many respects, it kills their business models. So it’s gonna be interesting to see long term, how this plays out. Do you think that they’ll shift gears back to being, you know, with the advent of this, all these additional platforms and competition? Do you think that’ll push them back toward being a little more objective? Or do you think they’re just gonna ride this to the bottom?

Scott Cunningham
I, I’m 99% sure. I’m not sure but I’m 99% betting on the fact that they’re going to ride this to the bottom. I don’t think they’re going to pull back. A large reason of why they’ve done a lot of that Like massive changes is to appeal to Chinese advertisers. And I only think that’s going to be more and more evident. So I don’t think that they’re going to, it wouldn’t be beneficial for them to turn back now, because they’ve already cut off so many people, and they’re going to continue doing that. They’re basically just like trading one audience for another audience. But because the other audience is bigger, they’re happy to do that, because that just means more money. And, and that’s all there. That’s all they’re really going off of now. So I think naturally, there’ll be a massive opening for all these new platforms to fill the void of that, that they’re that they’re creating, by doing all these things. And, you know, it’s it’s challenging for them to turn around and kind of be like, Okay, nevermind, we’ll cut off all these advertisers. And then we’ll just completely switch back to what we were doing before. Because there’s so many people who have a sour taste in their mouth, where they’re like, Yeah, but are you really going to stay this way, like for all we know, this is just for now. And a lot of people still want those new things anyways. And it’s, you still wouldn’t know if in six months from now they completely switch back to what they’re doing now, then you’re screwed, because you trusted them again, even though we really have no reason to trust them. That’s the thing. We have no real reason to trust them anymore. And that’s why blockchain solutions are so important because a lot of them are trust lists. Because we don’t have to rely on a specific person or entity. A lot of them are just, you know, they exist as is. And I think that’s one of the biggest the biggest things that attracts people to the technology because I don’t have to rely on anyone. I don’t have to put my faith in someone to do something for me. I can just rely on the math and then the code.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Well, you know, just since the last time you and I spoke, I actually opened up my own library channel and I am in the process of moving all my YouTube videos or at least synching on my YouTube videos. And now I’m starting to re embed those videos into my site from the library instead of YouTube. Because I just expect long term is that I just don’t trust that YouTube is gonna keep my channel up and I just don’t want to have to go through the mess after they’ve already deleted everything. So I want to thank you for helping me with that. But if you want to check it out at Rob McNealy on library now, that’s where we’re going to be focusing more of our energy just from the fact that maybe it’s not 100% decentralized, but it’s pretty close. And I think the team over there really supports free speech. And so I’m excited about like, just, you know, I’d rather give someone that cares about, you know, the liberties and freedoms that I do. I’d rather give them some business and support their project rather than YouTube because YouTube’s given me nothing. YouTube’s make money off me, but you’ve never given me anything. And it just why am I bothering and I’ve almost given to the, I’ve almost said why don’t I just delete the YouTube channel, but it’s still one of the biggest search engines out there. So I still have to kind of deal with it. But it’s just not going to be where I focus my energy anymore after, you know, after like last week, I’m just done less worrying about it. Because I just think that it’s a legacy dinosaur. So I hope the folks over library win. But I mean, how I mean, you you really track what they’re doing? How is the library’s growth?

Scott Cunningham
Really good. You should see you should see from when they hit a million users in March, and then from March to April, they went to 2.5 million users. So right now their growth is seemingly exponential. If you go over to library nomics, lbr, why and o m ICS, calm. You can see the top hundred or the top 200 channels. But more importantly, if you tab over to the next tab they have it’s all the channels that have ever been called. created all the publications that have ever been posted. It’s all graphed. And they even have specific events like the beginning of the crypto purge the launch of library TVs browser, because they only got the browser, you know, maybe six or seven months ago. So before you could only access it with a downloaded application, then when they got it on to the actual browser, they just took off. And yeah, you can go and see that you can see that it’s like it’s exponential right now. And I wouldn’t be surprised if, you know, by the end of this month, they are at 5 million users. And by the end of the year, 20 million plus, they really seem to just be destroying these milestones. Like you’ve got to consider steam it, I believe I have, after four years had about maybe 2 million, a little over 2 million users and libraries already passed that so you know, and that was the biggest Previously, so So now library is already essentially from what I can tell is the biggest blockchain dap. And yeah, I think it’s just going to keep on going. And, and one of the really good things about library is, you know you’re earning from day one, even the viewers earn I like I just made a post yesterday talking about the unique differences of library compared to other platforms. And one of the biggest most important thing for people is that you get paid via the views. So if I post a link to any other blockchain platform, you need to register and you need to go on and you need to upvote my posts for me to make money. If you watch my library video, regardless, if you register, you could just be on the website and you watch my video, I’m going to make money from that. So when I post it to Twitter, and people go on to hive or steam or anywhere else publish Oh x They’re not likely to sign up and do all this stuff unless they actually are a part of that platform. For the most part, it’s just someone clicking the link and then going to it, they might just read it or look at it or whatever. Like, you don’t have to sign up to medium to view articles on medium. But with library, even if they have or haven’t signed up, you’re still going to make that get that you’re going to get the view count. So you actually know that it’s happening to begin with, because again, with the other ones, you wouldn’t have even known that someone had clicked through and looked at your video or watched it because again, it’s it’s only really tracking like likes and stuff like that. So you can see everything that’s happening, and you’re gonna get paid for everything. So that’s one of the biggest things. I mean, there’s a million other things that I could dive into. But that’s why I’m really passionate about library because they have so much available to the creators and the viewers that is just really beneficial and they just make they have a really good ecosystem.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So how do they make money? How does They get the money to pay out all this. Is there an ad revenue model in there somewhere?

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, so they just started having an ad model. But the good thing is that currently, the way that it’s set up is that only people who aren’t registered will see ads on the browser. So if you’re logged in, and you’re using it, you shouldn’t see any ads. But if you go on via clicking a link or whatever, like I just sort of outlined, you might see an ad in the newsfeed as you’re scrolling through, but you would never see intrusive like in stream, video ads, skippable ads, anything like that you wouldn’t see, it would just be like you’re scrolling through the newsfeed and there might be like an ad in place of where one of the things might been on the newsfeed so it’s not super intrusive, and it’s only for people who haven’t signed up. So if you you’re annoyed by that, you can always just sign in and then or sign up and then there’s no issue. I don’t know how they’re going To expand that out, but I know that they’re trying to do it in the least intrusive way possible. They obviously know a lot of people are here because they don’t like the way that YouTube does things. So they’re obviously trying to build on that and create something that is sustainable, because obviously, there’ll be a point where, you know, like, where’s the money coming from? And obviously, they have to keep up with that as well.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
So what blockchain did they fork to build it? You know?

Scott Cunningham
I don’t know, for a lot I, from my understanding, I actually think they just like built their blockchain, but I haven’t looked too much into their actual blockchain to know to be like well versed in that.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
One of the other success platforms that I’m seeing out there where there’s crypto monetization, I think is then the brave browser with bat tokens. Yeah. And I you know, I wasn’t sold at first that you know, it’s great. I’m like are great another browser to download but it’s Like I started looking in over the last couple months, I think I got like 50 bucks or something in my brave browser, like wallet and I’m like, yeah, yeah. You know, and it’s like, it’s like, yeah, it’s not a lot. But I mean, if it’s 100 bucks a year or something just from surfing.

Scott Cunningham
And I think that’s interesting. And I think that that model, one, I think is a winner. I think paying people for advertising to them, gives people like, empowers people again, right.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
But I think, but I think it’s an amazing way to get people into crypto. I think it’s slow. But it’s happening and and as a library, it’s like, you know, yeah, YouTube might have paid me if I would have been monetizable in dollars, right. That’s always great. But the fact is, I’m getting you know, I’ve already made like, 30 cents or something on library and I’m all excited. Yeah. I mean, it was like the first revenue ever made for a video. So like, wow, that’s that’s really really kind of cool. And so I think this is how we get adoption. That’s why I tell people make a really good platform, and then add crypto or blockchain to it. But don’t make crypto or blockchain does a thing. It make a real app like, and I say this about game. Like, I think there’s a lot of people out there that in the crypto world, especially like games and stuff like this, and some are good, some are not, but they’re trying to make it all about the crypto instead of making it a really good game, or making it a really good web browser or, you know, make a really good application or that really solves a problem. And focus on that and gaming focus on the game, the ability of it, and I think and just add some monetization to it. And people don’t care about databases and blockchains I mean, they don’t and and so I think those are two winners and so far looking at library and bat and the brave browser. I think those are probably two of the biggest success stories that I’m seeing in crypto right now.

Scott Cunningham
Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. And they do so much to just make your experience better. Like for me on brave browser, I’ve said it so that I only get crypto and technology based ads. So I don’t get all the random pointless ads that I would normally get. You can even like, curate even further by liking the ads that you liked. And then they’ll give you more of that. So I actually have seen like some interesting crypto projects as ads. And you know, not only that they’re very unintrusive. And you can set how many you get at a time, you could just have none. And then there’s also brave creator to where creators can sign up for brave, and then people can tip you on Twitter or YouTube. It’s a sort of a way to integrate crypto into the legacy platforms that are already out there. And I think they’re doing an amazing job of doing that. And kind of getting people on to the brave browser with their onboarding process. And like you said, I think the most important thing is when people start earning crypto, it completely flips their perspective. At first it might have been, oh, I don’t understand this. I don’t trust this. I’m like, they’re gonna take my money. Now it’s, oh my, oh, you’re giving me money? How do I get this money? Oh, I have to create a wallet. Okay, one sec, let me go create a wallet, let me get this money. They’ll do they’ll, if you’re giving them money, they’ll find out how to get that money. And then all these people are going to come in and then they’re going to keep earning money. And they’re like, Why wasn’t I doing this before? So I think that’s how we’ll reach mass adoption. I’ve been saying this for many years that I think social media is the route to mass adoption for blockchain. Because that’s where all the awareness will be. If people are making money for posting a selfie. I think that’s a pretty easy way to realize the potential of cryptocurrency and what blockchain can do for monetizing tension. monetizing content. Pretty much a lot, almost any application in blockchain just improves upon something that we already have, and gives a little more power to the user. Or at least the good projects give a little more power to the user and more control more access more everything, right. They’re trying to remove middlemen and, and just empower the user more. And I think that’s, those are the projects that are going to come on top and stay on top. And projects that get away from that are going to fail. Perfect example of that right now is you know, steam has been kind of going on like it’s been it’s been going down because ever since Justin acquired it, he’s been centralizing it he’s been making it really not what it was meant to be. And they’ve been losing a lot of people and people have been switching over to hive because they are still embodying the original values of steam and people will make Do whatever works best for them. I forgot to mention this earlier. It was either today or yesterday that Joe Rogan, announced he was leaving YouTube. Huge, biggest podcast in the world is leaving YouTube. He’s moving exclusively to Spotify. It would have been amazing if it was like library or something. But that alone is showing people that these platforms are not going to last, if all of the big influencers and creators start to leave. They have nothing to offer their their advertising isn’t useful if there’s no one there. And obviously, you know, it’s it’s going to be slow at first. But with these big people leaving, you know, other people are going to say, Oh, where are they going? I’ll go there. Joe Rogan is on mines.com, for example. So that’s good. He actually had the CEO of Minds on his podcast and we need more of that I mean he probably only knows about mine so if he learned about library maybe he would be on Lbry so you know, as these things grow and get more awareness I think we’ll see a lot more big influencers joining and there already are a lot of really really big influencers on there. And I think it’s only gonna it’s only going to keep growing.

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Perfect Scott Cunningham, where can people find out more about you?

Scott Cunningham
You can find me pretty much anywhere at Scott seed business. Seo TTC be you si n e s s. And I have a podcast called crypto and things you can find that on any podcast platform like apple, podcasts, Spotify, all that good stuff. And yeah, you can find all the rest of my links at my website, Scott see business.com

Rob McNealy – RobMcNealy.com
Thank you so much Scott and Rob McNealy and check us out at RobMcNealy.com. We appreciate you listening.

Scott Cunningham
Thanks for having me.

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