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Joe Vezzani – LunarCRUSH Video

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Joe Vezzani – LunarCRUSH Transcript

Joe Vezzani - Lunar Crush

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy 0:01
Okay, today we’re talking to Jove a Zani. He is the CEO and founder of lunar crush, which is right now the app that I have the biggest crush on for the crypto world. I’m really, really excited to talk to him about that. So, welcome to the show. Joe, how are you today?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 0:18
I’m doing well. Rob, thank you so much for having me.

Rob McNealy 0:22
Well, I appreciate taking time. You know, as someone who’s been in the crypto space for a little while, I always like to see the people doing something different in the space. And the other thing that’s really interesting about what I what you’re doing here is that you kind of care about UI and UX, which seems to be the wall in the crypto sphere. So before we jump in, why don’t we just go and you know, let’s learn a little bit about you. How Who are you? How’d you get into this space?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 0:51
Yeah, for sure. You know, got started pretty similarly. I feel like to a lot of other people that I hear you You know, talk about crypto is, you know, at some point, you know, someone that you know, or, you know, you kind of just run across Bitcoin. And, you know, I was at the time it was, you know, probably like late 2014, early 2015, and my now co founder, john, as he just kind of came up to me and we were working together at the time, he’s like, hey, do you know what Bitcoin is? And I was like, I don’t know. And it was like, his eyes lit up, like he got to tell someone new and learned a little bit about Bitcoin. And, you know, for me, you know, kind of coming out of school with a finance degree, worked in technology and startups before it was kind of this intersection of finance and tech that I was just like, I need to be a part of this somehow. And then, you know, started looking a little bit more at everything else, and you start to kind of go down the ladder a little bit and you’re like, you know, at the time, it was just mostly just Bitcoin. That was some other stuff. But you start to figure out like, what’s this ethereal thing and Litecoin and you start to learn a little bit more and you’re like, Wow, there. There is a lot down this rabbit hole, and I need to learn more about it. And so, at that time, we were just kind of going back and forth. And you know, we were the people that everyone was like, you know, hey, what do I buy? What’s the next hot tip? And what do I do next? And, you know, just kind of got deeper and deeper from there.

Rob McNealy 2:17
Well, I think that’s a lot how a lot of us kind of get started with this. I actually haven’t been in crypto that long. And people always like how long you been in here? Like two years, two and a half years or like, well, how long is your old your project? Two years. So we kind of just like jumped right in. But one of the things that I kind of interesting is your app. And I have been like glued to this thing, like every day, like I used to go to like coin market cap and coin Gecko and keep hitting refresh and refresh. And I don’t even go there anymore. I go to lunar crush. So let’s talk about lunar crash. What is lunar crash and why am I personally so addicted to it?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 3:01
Well, first off, thank you, that’s a huge compliment. I appreciate that. And you know that, you know, the kind of the addictiveness a little bit is is the way we kind of design this and the way we think about, you know, experience and people coming onto our site and looking at everything is we’re very focused on that design and, and getting people to understand what’s happening very easily, even for people that aren’t into the crypto space yet, but are kind of, you know, like, we’d like to say crypto curious. And they’re starting to dive in, we wanted it to be simple. And inherently the market is our market in this space is very community driven. And a lot of these projects that, you know, especially in the all coin, they’re very, it’s kind of tribal, and people out there posting and they’re talking about what’s happening in the community. And, you know, we capture that, you know, and we’re looking at across the entire market, we’re looking at things like Twitter, Reddit, any sort of news URL that’s out there any link and we’re pulling all that together, and so your You’re really feeling what’s happening in real time when you’re when you’re on our site and you’re in your understanding, not just Bitcoin but everything else and what the community is saying at this exact moment. And so it’s a really amazing kind of feeling to get out there and really kind of see the heart and the pulse of the market. And I think it’s what people have kind of been waiting for it for a while.

Rob McNealy 4:21
Well, I agree with that. And not only do you have like, you know, normal, you know, statistics about and, you know, measurements about what a coin might be doing from a price perspective and things like that. But you’re pulling in all these measurements about in metrics about what the community is saying almost like sentiment and engagement, that kind of monitoring and And to me, that’s pretty fascinating. What what what made you think to do that, no one else is doing it that I’m seeing out there. So yeah, why go there?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 4:54
Well, you know, we look at when you look at kind of the stock markets, and you look at equities, and you Look at what drives value and the prices of these of these things. It’s it’s really earnings. You know, obviously there’s speculative, you know, you can look at Tesla and what’s happening right now. And, you know, as we record this February 4 2020, it’s kind of parabolic right now, and it’s moving. And that’s, that’s speculation, and it’s, it’s about the future growth of that company. And that’s what’s driving the value. And, but when you’re looking at the broader when we’re talking stock market, its earnings. I mean, it’s literally earnings beats over time is really what pushes these stocks up over time. And that’s why those big companies are so focused on that, where crypto is, is not like that. Its supply and demand driven. What is the social discourse that’s happening? Who’s talking about it? How are the communities being grown, it’s very different. And so you know, when we’re, we wanted to look at what the community is saying we wanted to see it in real time, and we wanted to put it, you know, over time, and you kind of see it on our site as more of a graphical time series representation and so you’re really seen it One place, you know, how is how did the, you know, the tehsils community do over the last two months? Is it growing? Is it shrinking? You know, when you’re looking at maybe some projects that are a little bit smaller that are up and coming, and you get a tip from a friend and you’re like, hey, check this project out, you know, you’re going to know real fast, whether or not that’s kind of a viable project? Or is it kind of the beginning or the end of it? By looking at our site?

Rob McNealy 6:24
So how did you come up with some of these algorithms are the best guests or did you benchmark against something? Because you got some interesting, you know, analysis that you have that, you know, these algorithms that are built into it? Where did that come from?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 6:38
Which ones are you talking about specifically?

Rob McNealy 6:42
I don’t have it up in front of me now. See, now you’re catching me off guard. I’m gonna have to like look it up. Like…

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 6:48
Like, so we have a couple of proprietary metrics that we’ve designed. One’s called the galaxy score, and the other one’s called vault rank.

Rob McNealy 6:54
That’s it right there. See you called it that was the one I didn’t know the name of it. So yes, that’s The Galaxy score that was it was on the top of my, my, my tongue there.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 7:05
Yeah, we’ve got a very space themed over here. But so galaxy score I can start with first and, you know, we wanted to kind of create a metric and it’s it’s a real time metric and we’re looking at things that are coming in constantly we’re not, you know, we’re not Moody’s you know, or s&p out here and saying that, you know, it’s a by rating or, you know, it’s a, you know, from a B to A B plus, or whatever it is, and, you know, over the next couple of months, this is what’s going to happen, we, you know, crypto moves too quick for that. And so, with galaxy score, we’re looking at each individual project, and we’re looking at it’s a performance against itself over time. And so we’re looking at things like we’re doing some technical analysis and some price, you know, analysis on each project, but then we’re also incorporating that projects community and the social that has happened around that project and how quickly it’s happening. And so, galaxy score, you know, like, I like to say it’s kind of like coffee. More advanced traders only where, you know, that’s going to move pretty rapidly. And so we’ve got people like, you know, bot traders, and we’ve got, you know, professional traders and people that are using that to look in real time at what’s happening. And so it’s, you know, zero to 100 score and you know, 100 would be the best. And so it means that there’s a lot of kind of social that’s happening at that moment, along with Bryce. And then the other one is called alt rank. And so alt rank is looking at a project’s performance against the rest of the market. And so it’s ranking everything from a one to you know, I think, right now, we’ve got about 1700 that we’re looking at across the entire market. And so we’re pulling in and saying, hey, what is, you know, a theory of price versus something like Bitcoin over time? And is it beating that is it losing against that? And then what is the kind of the social that’s happening at the same time, and so when you kind of put all that in correlate it together, you really get this kind of cool understanding of the market and so at any given time, time if you’re looking at lunar crash and you go to our markets page, and you’re seeing things, you know, ranked one to 25 that means that something’s happening right now. Prices moving, socialist moving, things are happening, volume is high market volume is high. And it’s somewhere as a trader or someone that’s looking at the market, you should really be paying attention to that.

Rob McNealy 9:18
So I’m looking at the you know, I’m bias. I’m looking at the Tusk page on lunar crash. So my Galaxy score for our project went down since yesterday. It was in the 50s yesterday, which said neutral but now it’s down and it says bearish. So what did we do that went from neutral yesterday to bearish today on the galaxy’s score for task.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 9:38
I’m not looking at it right here. But, you know, my guess would be that, you know, if there was a decline in market volume, or if there was a decline in price, correlated with also some social volume that’s going down then, at least at this moment, you know, in the galaxy scores updating continuously, that it’s a little bit lower now. You know, if there’s some buys that come through at the Some social action that happens if things start to kind of move, that galaxy score is going to jump pretty quickly. And so, you know, a move from something like in the 40s to something in the 80s, per se is gonna, that should be a blip on the radar to say that something’s happening with with Tusk.

Rob McNealy 10:15
Gotcha. So and I know, we didn’t have any volume yesterday, because we’re still new, and we’re only on one exchange, and, but I’m just curious on how, you know, I’m looking at my own stuff. So, but are all drank here says we’re 864 out of 2046. So, it’s got a little trophy thing, what does that mean?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 10:33
So 864 I mean, you know, again, this is this is looking at test performance against Bitcoin. So if it’s underperforming against something like Bitcoin, and then also, you know, maybe social volume or social engagement is is lower than the alt rank is going to kind of rank there but, you know, hey, 864 to 2000 you know, you’re still better than than 50%. But, you know, if if test starts to outperform bit coin and there starts to be some social that’s happening in real time, then you would see that rank move up really quickly. And, you know, I just want to caveat that we also put we as also assign an alt rank to Bitcoin. And the way that you could kind of look at that, look at that is if Bitcoin is rallying and is the number one all coin, our alt rank and lunar garage, it means that you know, you you might want to be in Bitcoin right now, because there’s rally happening, things are moving.

Rob McNealy 11:27
So there’s another section that says about the task. It’s over on the right side where it’s about the Messari. The Messari section, sorry.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 11:39
Yep.

Rob McNealy 11:40
So with is that section, we don’t have anything there. How would I get stuff there?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 11:44
So we, you know, we’re focused at Luna crush on all the social and the real time data, and then we’re partnering and we utilize miscarries data for some of the more about section I think mizar does an amazing job of kind of aggregating kind of the you know, more long Form kind of project oriented data around the why and what’s happening. And so, you know, they we pull in some of their data to kind of showcase on our site, if people want to kind of dive more into the, you know, who are the some of the founders of the project, you know, what is the, you know, what’s the blockchain? Like? What’s the out of their algorithm? Like, how is it working? And so they’re, they’re kind of focused on that. And so we pull in the data from there to, to kind of showcase on our site because they do such a good job.

Rob McNealy 12:27
So we need to get on their radar, if we want that box filled. So it also says here that our social sentiment is 60% of 3.3%, then bullish, so that’s a good thing right? Under the alt right box.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 12:43
Social sentiment, you’re saying?

Rob McNealy 12:45
Yeah, that’s right under the alt rank box,

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 12:48
Yep. Yep. So social sentiment, anything that is, you know, probably over 50%, we start to kind of categorize as more of a bullish and so we’re looking at some of the some of the data that’s out there, and You know, we’ve actually trained our own machine learning to look at, specifically crypto language out there in the web. And so, you know, when people talk about different projects in our space, you know, they, they speak about it differently, you know, when someone says, whether they’re right or wrong, that you know, monero is going to the moon. That’s a bullish sentiment. But, you know, a traditionally trained library is not going to pick that up. And so we’ve actually gone in and as the data comes in, we’re training it and we’re looking at it specifically and kind of hand tailoring all the data to understand, you know, what is the sentiment across some of this?

Rob McNealy 13:37
So it’s not just hashtags, you’re looking at the whole key words and different terms and how they’re used in conjunction with other maybe adjectives or things like that.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 13:47
Yeah, I mean, we’re looking at you know, any news that’s out there or any, any social that’s out there, and if there’s links that are posted within that, we’re kind of going in spidering that and looking at the different articles and trying to figure out, you know, was this was this meant to be Something that was a more positive or more as more of a negative occurrence.

Rob McNealy 14:05
So where do you see this would apply to other assets? Perhaps even like So you mentioned earlier with like Tesla, it seems like it’d be really interesting now to see some of the sentiment around Tesla, because everybody seems to be phone via phone going around it right now. Do you think this would apply in the same way to traditional assets like that?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 14:26
Man, I mean, the FOMO is so high in Tesla, I don’t think you even need ludicrous to identify the sentiment on that one. But yes, I mean, in in a short answer would be that, yes, absolutely. We can take in and pull in kind of traditional asset classes and look at it, our focus has, you know, we’re passionate about the crypto space and we want it to grow and we’re very focused on it. And so our, you know, our roadmap right now, at least for the foreseeable future is focused on cryptocurrency and we want to see this space grow and we want to see the you know, the people and the projects and the company’s growing So we’re completely focused on growing and, and maintain our space here.

Rob McNealy 15:05
So how are you guys funded? How did you guys? Are you bootstrapping this? Or did you get some VC money?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 15:11
We we originally bootstrapped this thing from the beginning. You know, we were, you know, like, like anyone else you want to build something from scratch and you want it, want it to be yours, and so we bootstrapped it. We did. In 2019. We joined a tech stars program, so I’m not sure if any of your listeners know but tech stars is, you know, one of the you know, best accelerator startup accelerator.

Rob McNealy 15:36
David Cohen.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 15:37
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So tech stars. We joined the LA program here and did that from July to October. And then we have, you know, some other some other partnerships with some local venture capitalists here in in Los Angeles. One is Draper Goran home. So they just founded new venture firm called Jake record home, which is Tim Draper, along Goran and Joseph home here who are kind of local, well known kind of entrepreneurs in the blockchain space.

Rob McNealy 16:11
So what is your revenue model? How you gonna make money with this?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 16:16
Well, right now we’re just growing our business and getting as many people to use it as humanly possible. We’re focused on user growth and and getting this out to the community. Right now. It’s free to get into lunar crash login and kind of see what’s happening on there. We also have an API and and we’re very shortly going to be coming out with a real time API. So anyone that’s, you know, a traitor, anyone that’s a little bit more advanced quant funds that are out there. We’re excited to partner with them and see kind of how they want to utilize some of the data. And so we’re just trying to understand the marketplace right now and kind of be out there and see where we have the where we have the best fit.

Rob McNealy 16:55
I think that’s really good, the way you’re kind of pulling the data together in a very visual way. And I think with crypto, that’s been such a problem. And I think it’s, I think it’s part of the the fact that so much of crypto is just developer LED and which is, you know, a hardcore command line kind of community, right. And so I think a lot of these guys out there and what as far as the developers go, they just don’t really think of UI and graphical user interfaces of things that important sometimes, or at least they, you know, underscore or plug down play. You know how important that is. But the one thing that I like what you’re doing, because I’m a very visual person, but visual representations of data can present patterns, that in trends that you cannot see with just normal tablature type of data scenarios. And I think that’s why you’re going to be successful with this because you’re lightyears ahead on your UI UX, compared to anything else that I’m seeing in crypto right now. And I’m excited It about where this is going. Because to me, this is how you get to adoption in because you’re recognizing, at least it seems like you’re recognizing how the design element is important here.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 18:12
Appreciate that, yeah, we spend a lot of time and, you know, a lot of thought and strategy and, you know, just going through and trying to put ourselves in our users shoes. And, you know, we, you know, I think it’s like when we went to one of those kind of first block stack summits at like, the Computer History Museum a couple years ago, and, you know, we were looking around at some of the different projects and we just kind of said to ourselves, it was like, you know, we need to focus on design and we need to focus on usability. You know, and it’s such a, you know, a slight usability change in any industry can have a profound effect. You know, look at look at Uber, you know, taxis existed, and, you know, people didn’t take them and it was because they didn’t want to call didn’t know who to call, they didn’t want to pay, they didn’t have cash. And so they felt bad to get into a cab and not pay and they get yelled at. And, you know, the simple, you know, design change of, you know, now I just put my credit card in and it shows up and I can, it’s really cool, I see it coming on this little map. That’s a, that’s an extremely, you know, amazing design disruption. And it’s simple. And so I think with the crypto, it’s the same thing where, you know, you’ve got these, these blockchains, and you’ve got these projects out there. And, you know, I think coin base has done an amazing job, you know, kind of building that first kind of use use case out and that on ramp that she had on ramp especially in the US. And now it’s kind of opening the door to these other tools that are out there and getting people deeper. And now it’s not just a professional trader that’s going to be on here. It’s going to be people that are a little bit more novice that don’t want to be intimidated. And so if you’re not focused on you know, helping people understand very simply how some of this stuff works, then it’s Not gonna it’s not going to work. And, you know, even when we originally started, it was, you know, we had 40 different charts on a page. And it was, you know, infinite scroll, and it just kept going and going, and it wasn’t working. And it’s not until you kind of simplify things and make it make it easy it is to where people start actually using it and understanding.

Rob McNealy 20:19
Well, it’s kind of funny the way even web design has changed over the past, you know, five years, 10 years ago, you’re trying to keep everything above the fold. And then I don’t know what happened because I stopped doing web development A long time ago, and then all of a sudden, now everything’s infinite scroll. And I’m like, didn’t we try to keep everything above the fold for a reason where people didn’t have to scroll for usability. So I don’t know what changed there. But it seems to me that usability is still important and you want to make people have to work the least amount when they’re using your site to get around. And I think you do that and I really do like the fact that you spent so much time in design and I think that is going to make this very Very useful. And it can’t believe that, you know, some of the big players as far as the trackers go, how awful their UI czar or how primitive they are. From the design standpoint, considering how much some of these trackers are bringing in revenue, you think they could bring in some design folks and fix that, but maybe they need to bring you in to fix it for them. Joe, where can people find out more about your project?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 21:28
Linda crush calm is the easiest way. You can also find us on Twitter, we’re really active on Twitter. It’s just at Luna crush. We’re posting you know, all sorts of insights all day, we have a coin of the day that we post on each day. And that’s kind of our way to get people in and get people understanding the data for free. So that I would say go to Luna crush calm or just follow us at at Luna crush.

Rob McNealy 21:52
So thank you so much. And I do appreciate you coming on the show today. And I wish you all the luck in the future.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 21:58
And thank you my man. Appreciate it.

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Paul McNeal – The Crypto Curator Transcript

Paul McNealy - The Crypto Curator

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Today I am talking to Paul McNeal. He is The Crypto Curator and an evangelist about Bitcoin. We’ve been connected on social media for some time now and I find his tweets are very interesting and sometimes even a little bit controversial. So I’d like to welcome the show. How are you today, Paul?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I’m doing well. How are you?

Rob McNealy
Good. What’s going on today?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, you know, it’s just another wonderful day in the world of Bitcoin.

Rob McNealy
Seems like every day something’s happening in Bitcoin and crypto in general. So for kind of jump into all that stuff. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into crypto

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Sure, um, well, I won’t go back too far but I served in the military for 10 years, served onboard submarines, three of them enjoyed that left that and then I went to work for the government as a government contractor did that for a little bit left that went and started a business with a friend of mine. That’s what got me into the world of entrepreneurship. built that with him for a little while, then made an exit out of that and then started selling it consulting and it was during IT consulting where I learned about Bitcoin Of course it was across Twitter believe it was trace Mayor that I came across and after hearing about it I was just fascinated and so I kept following kept following it and the more you follow it The deeper the down the rabbit hole you go. And so after that I was hooked.

Rob McNealy
So did you when you were working in submarines did you work with cryptography in any way?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Actually, I did. I was a submarine radium and onboard three nuclear power subs and as a radium in our communications person we encrypted All of our communication so little different than the crypto most people here today in Bitcoin but as these little strips of pieces of paper that we would pull through devices that would encrypt the communication. And so I was familiar with encryption from that perspective when I was in the military.

Rob McNealy
So would you say the most interesting thing about crypto is for you personally?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, the most interesting thing I found about it is and I had come across this actually didn’t realize it back in the day when PGP first came around and understanding how to do the PGP on email and things like that. But what I’ve come to find out and learn about and that I appreciate is that it allows us to have control over our information and our communication, which in today’s world, because it is so much of it is done online. There’s a need a deep need for that type of encryption privacy. So I’ve learned that you know, it allows me to take control back over my information.

Rob McNealy
And you know, you’ve been doing some interesting experiments with that recently yourself. And you and I talked about this a little bit before, you know, off the air. But you’ve recently done something very interesting that I can’t fathom how you’re doing it. So tell us a little bit about that.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yes. So it happened late, late last year, a couple months before the year ended, I got to paying attention to just my normal activities online and things and I was noticing that I was communicating more on messaging platforms than I was email, I would check in on emails and I have like three or four email accounts and I’ve logged in and I was delete, delete, delete, delete, and I was like, why am I even logging an email anymore? And then it dawned on me and it’s probably some back subliminal messaging I Alex machine ski is voices in my head. And he was talking about doing for money, what he did for voice Voice over IP money becoming money over IP, and then he used the term streaming money and then I got to thinking, wow, streaming communication. And I was like, why are we still using email when we could be using messaging. And so I’ve made the decision to stop using email. And then at 2020. I said, I don’t want to use email at all I really want to check in. I just want to use messaging. So I’ve been in that process right now.

Rob McNealy
So how’s it going so far?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
So far, there are bumps, I learned a big bump, and I found it interesting. And again, this is what really sets off the spidey senses for you can’t have a mobile device without an email. I tried deleting my Gmail off my Android phone and it went berserk and I was like, whoa, wait a minute. So I’m starting to find out now same thing goes for iPhone. I’m certain if you were to pull your Apple ID your which is your email address away from your phone. I think your phone would not allow you to do certain things. So I’m starting to find that that’s going to be a major hurdle in completely disconnecting those accounts, so I can’t complain. Disconnect mom to check them, but I can’t disconnect them for that reason.

Rob McNealy
Well, I can tell you the one Apple device that I currently still have when I don’t have that user ID and and it freaks out. So yeah, I think you’re right on that. There is a new phone supposedly coming out, I think pretty soon Have you heard of it called the Libra phone. And it’s a new, completely supposedly privacy oriented type of hardware device that’s supposed to be coming out on the market. And I’m actually very interested in some of that new technology where people are allowing people to, you know, create devices that are taking away that power back from you know, basically it’s Google and Apple at this point. And so it’s something I’m very interested in. And though I don’t understand how you can completely delete yourself from email because I would have a very difficult time with it. I can tell you I’ve recently gone through this purging process. process where I noticed just in the last six weeks or so I started paying attention to my ad my own, you know mailboxes in some of my accounts. And I had over 50,000 emails that I deleted out of my various email accounts. And now I’m going through this process where I’m unsubscribing to every single mailing list that I’m on and my inbox is away quiet or now, and not as annoying because I was getting I was getting about 100 different messages a day that weren’t spam. But they were updates from this mailing list to that mailing list, and it did start becoming overwhelming to me. And so I can understand where you’re coming from with this wanting to delete email altogether, because I swear if I think I could get rid of that I would.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, I think a lot of people would have talked to a lot of people and they’ve told me the same thing, and I do you know, I’m I’m not trying to pretend like this is going to be an easy process because this is going to be difficult. Because I was talking to a friend of mine, he has a system that he uses emails and it follows emails, high retrieves information, his whole workflow is built around and I get it, right, mine is a little bit easier because I’m an independent guy work for myself, I don’t have to, and I don’t per se have clients. So I found that most people that I interact with, are open to interacting on these messaging platforms via email. So I found though a lot of people when I tell them not using email, and can you use one of the messaging platforms, most people have them already. So it’s not a big stretch for me to ask them to communicate via telegram or a messenger or, you know, whatever the platform is.

Rob McNealy
Have you found one particular messaging app that at least gives you more control over your privacy than say over something offered by Facebook or Google?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, there’s three of them in particular, the fourth ones, you have to do a trick. So key based IO, which A lot of people, they check it out. I know it’s another platform, but it’s it’s a cross between like a slack, a telegram and a Venmo. That messaging app allows me to do text, voice or even video and I began to use that platform a lot. And that’s a blockchain based platform, completely decentralized. It does have a central authority that built the platform, but it is private and all the information is yours. signal is another great one. That one is actually endorsed by Edward Snowden. And that one doesn’t have any back doors to the NSA. It’s actually not based in the US is based in Sweden, I believe are Switzerland, sorry that Sweden, Switzerland. And then wire is another and then telegram and of course telegram is private has encryption, but you have to do a secret chat in order for it to be completely encrypted from NSA.

Rob McNealy
Well, I’m on multiple of the platforms that you just mentioned before and I am kind of looking at some of the other different platforms that I’m not using right now what I find the problem is, is that is not just me, if I move over, I got to take a whole lot of other people with me to get on one platform and, and you know, running, you know, or at least helping run now, a crypto project, you kind of have to be in the same place, you got to get kind of a critical mass of people and you gotta like, hey, drive them here and say, Hey, we’re all on five different platforms. Now you gotta sign up for all five of these platforms, it kind of gets a little unruly. So I’m not sure the best way at this point to like, deal with all of that. But we are kind of looking at different options that are a little more secure.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I agree. And that is going to be one of the headaches as we move forward. And I’m wondering if someone’s going to build some type of a standard that allows you to have a unified platform that allows you to do and pull in all the other ones. I’m trying to think back. I remember back in the day with the web and when the web first started, people would build these platforms that you could plug several different things into one and eight pulls it all into one. So I don’t know if we’re going to see that with communication, but it is going to be an issue with some people been on so many different platforms.

Rob McNealy
Well, there was one called I think back in the day from the social media side of things called friendfeed. And what ultimately happened they got bought out and they kind of killed it. But one of the things that it was the point of it was that it was trying to consolidate all the feeds from the different social media accounts in one place. Because everybody’s got multiple footprints right? But what ultimately killed that I think that concept of these you know, social media aggregators is that all the platforms didn’t want to give API access the the platforms want people on their platform, they want to hold those eyeballs because their their revenue models are dependent on those eyeballs staying on their platforms. So in one thing and or one perspective, it’s a really great idea to maybe open those API’s up and allow people to, you know, be off your platform, but On the other hand, they don’t want to give up that power. So I think it’s interesting going forward where these things will end up panning out. You know, in social media, at least network effects are real thing. There’s all sorts of alternative meet, you know, there’s all sorts of alternative platforms out there for all the different social media platforms. But none of them are really getting any traction, just from the standpoint is that the eyeballs aren’t there? And what do you think about that? Where do you think the future is going to be with these different platforms and the way the social media world and tech world has treated privacy and free speech? issues like that?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, you know, I definitely agree with you. That’s part of the challenge. Everybody wants access. Now, what I think could change that is if we do shift to platforms, and unfortunately I mentioned this earlier in the periscope, the idea on Twitter, free has really damaged us because things are free. We Use them. And we don’t realize free doesn’t mean free free means free for you to use, but you’re doing it at a price. And that price that you’re paying currently is much higher than it would be if you paid dollars for it. So unfortunately, I think these platforms will have to monetize by charging people to use them. And I think that’s going to help with some of the consolidation of which platforms people choose to use. But in addition to that, I think once we do that, then hopefully we can get strong enough encryption put in place that if you’re interacting with these platforms, those platforms really don’t care if you stay on their platform, because you’re either paying for it, but they’re really not getting access to any of your information. Anyway, the only reason people want you on their platform so they can monetize it, by your being free. But if it’s not free, and they’re paying and you’re paying to use it, it really doesn’t matter at that point, I’m assuming.

Rob McNealy
I think there’s going to be a tipping point probably in the next five years. About people wanting to either have more control over their data, their privacy, but I think there’s going to be more of a push, especially from social media content creators about getting bigger revenue shares. And I think that’s going to open up. I think it’s going to open up an opportunity, as the big tech giants keep basically cutting out and ostracizing and alienating certain communities on their platforms, and D monetizing people that will start putting pushing more and more people to other platforms. And I think there’s going to be a point where the tech industry in Silicon Valley basically makes itself irrelevant. If they keep going in the direction they’re going right now, what do you think?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, exactly. And, and I think we’re going to see and I’m early on this, but I think that Facebook has done a good job at putting its tentacles in several areas, and it’s smart for them because that means that they have a better chance of surviving. Facebook, I’ve noticed I’m moving myself off of Facebook, I sent out messages to my entire network at about like 1400. Folks, most of those people I hadn’t really interacted with in a long time. And I told him I had several criteria for people that I would unfriend and get rid of people that have I hadn’t spoken to you in over a year, right. And that means literally haven’t spoken to you on the phone in person a message I like or something, then you were gone because it didn’t make any sense. And I kept whittling that down. Once I got down to the core, I sent them all a message says, Hey, listen, I’m going to stop using Facebook in 2020. But here’s how you can get in contact with me. Here’s my phone number. And I’ll be on these other platforms if you like to communicate. I think you’re going to see these large platforms like a Google like Facebook slowly dwindle down and usage because people will wake up hopefully more to privacy and that or they will have to try to try and shift their models and trying to shift that model from where they are now can be very hard to So it’s going to be interesting. I don’t have any definitive, but I know for myself and I know many others are slowly making that transition off of some of these platforms. And if that continues, it’ll be a slow progression, but I think they’ll have to change.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I don’t think it’s going to be abrupt. Just because the networking effect and the inertia that they have, it’s going to take time. What I do think, though, is that when they get they’re so locked into having that power, that centralized control, and I view it a lot like government, these big massive corporations, once they go down a path, they won’t stop even though they know what they’re doing isn’t going to last they can see the handwriting on the wall, but because of their inertia, and they’re kind of blinded almost by it, that they won’t adapt. And and I believe over time, it will be the downfall of a lot of those large mega corporations and it won’t be overnight. It They’ll be, you know, they’ll lose a different community here in another community there. And, and, and they’ll just kind of kind of dwindled down to my space at some point. You know, it’s just I don’t think it’s going to be abrupt. It but I do think it’s going to happen. And I think it’s like this. You know, you’ve seen recently, you know, jack Dorsey from Twitter talking about how he wants to create, you know, some kind of standard, and he wants to pick and choose who’s on this little, you know, basically, committee project. And I tell people look, if he wanted to make Twitter for a bastion of free space or free speech, he would do it in a minute. He could he has the power to do that. Now, the problem is, he has no incentive to do it. And in fact, I don’t believe that people give up power willingly, typically. And I think for things like Twitter or some of these other platforms for them to adapt, they have to give up power. But I think ultimately, if they are not willing to give up our they’re not going to survive.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Correct, and I think jack Dorsey is a great example. Because what he’s currently doing and if he is successful, and I think he’s forward thinking enough that he created his square crypto group, and that they want to work on Bitcoin, and he’s trying to move into the decentralized realm, he will definitely be ahead of the pack. And I think we’re going to see the rest of these big behemoths have to make the same type of a shift. It is definitely going to be tricky for them to do so. And what you said is true. Are people willing to give up power? That’s something that spans across everything, and I agree with you, people are not willing to give up power. But I think that, unfortunately, the more they try to hold on to that power, the more they’re going to lose it. The way you keep power is that you got to give it away. If you don’t give it away, you will lose it.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I think that’s going to be an issue and it’ll be interesting to see how it pans out and it’ll be also in Interesting to see how the crypto space pans out long term. You know, I’m not a maximalist on any project. I’m a maximalist on my project, from the standpoint that I really believe in what I’m working on. But I think it’s going to be interesting how things shift out in crypto over the next couple of years. I think that the big players in crypto, there’s a good shot that a lot of the big players currently are going to lose their standing over the next couple of years because I think how people are going to evaluate crypto products is going to change dramatically.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, you know, that’s interesting. I haven’t done it. I probably should have done it before this call but I think it was maybe last year middle of last year. I was curious, I said, I want to know and I’m sure you might have heard this website is called wayback machine. You go back in time. So I did that with coin market cap and I was shocked to find four assets remain at the top. That’s 10 years for assets remain the top some of these projects I agree with Few they won’t but I’m seeing that even through time and that’s years upon years upon years they remain. bitcoins remain number one a theorem for the most part remains number two repple remains number three there was one point where ripple flipped a theorem, but it was briefly and then number four of course now it’s be cash or at the time and be cash wasn’t in existence I forget, which was like the main one that stayed number four, but the Litecoin

Rob McNealy
Hmm, I think it was like Litecoin.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I thank you. Thank you. You’re absolutely right. It was like when Litecoin has now shifted because of tether and because of the cash those two supplanted like coin into like coins. But But yeah, I mean, it’s so some of these other projects. And even if we look at the top 10 and I might even do that after this call. Go back and look at the top 10 take a screenshot and see where those assets are. I tell somebody if the project’s have a pretty solid team, if they have a good development of the actual product. And they’ve started to get adoption, I think those projects will remain. But if you have zero adoption, your product is not really even built out and your team is feres, you’re not going to stay.

Rob McNealy
I think going forward, what we’re going to find is the kryptos that actually have customers. And what I mean by customers is not what most people mean when they say users. I’m a heretic when it comes to crypto because I don’t believe that investors are users. And most of the people in the big project say, well, we have this many users and I’m like, No, you don’t you have investors, you have speculators. And guess what, right now? No, kryptos actually have people really in any large amounts, people using their crypto for buying and selling goods or services, any of them not Bitcoin, Litecoin none of them. And to me, whoever cracks that nut, whoever gets it, their crypto actually being used for buying and selling goods and services will unleash on massive change in how crypto products are evaluated. And I believe when that happens, the kryptos that actually have customers are the ones are going to be winning.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I agree. I can’t I can’t. I was like you said, No, no mass adoption. But there are several projects where people do use them here in the US, probably not much around the world in developing countries. I think they do dash has got a very user user user base down in Venezuela. I think they’ve done some projects there. I know the Iota project is working. And I know some big auto manufacturers are beginning to use Iota with their cars. And I think we’re going to see the automobile industry become one of the leading adopters of digital assets because they’re going to use it for car to car payment. And that’s being built out and I think we’re going to start to see some adoption in that going forward. So but I agree with you, until you get actual customers using it paying with it. You can forget it. It’s not

Rob McNealy
Yeah, yeah, that’s what’s going to happen and and i look at projects not even because of their market cap, though most people look at market cap is the number one indicator of how successful project is. And unfortunately, market cap can change very rapidly, because it’s all based on emotion. It’s not being based on fundamentals. And I think things are going to change a lot in the next two years in crypto. That’s what I take. So that’s my take. And I think what you’re going to see is a lot of these crypto products, we still that we’re part of that Ico kind of nonsense from two years ago, there’s still a lot of those Ico tokens that are dead that are still on the top 100 coin market cap. And you start going down the list of these projects, there’s still a lot of dead tokens, essentially, are dead projects still all over the trackers that still have large market caps, but they’re completely dead. And I think what’s going to end up happening is at some point, someone’s going to have to stick a fork in and say it’s done, get it off the list. And that’s going to happened at some point. But I think the projects that customers that are actually using buying and selling goods or services are going to, they’re going to shatter and skyrocket when people start going, Hey, you know what? having actual people using this for its intended purpose is kind of a big deal and kind of important, why we look at that. And I, you know, I was looking down the list of some big projects recently, I do a lot of research and other projects. Because I want to know, what makes them tick. Why are they considered popular when they don’t even have customers? And it’s interesting, if you go look at almost every major project out there, they don’t have anybody in a way on the team that can get out there project and they’re not even structured to sales, marketing or business development. None of them. There’s pretty much none of you look at any of the team pages on the top 100 Top 200 a queen market cap or queen Gecko and look at the team pages for the projects and show me how many people are on that team. have sales, marketing, business development, not even authority, but that’s their, that’s their task. And they don’t have it. So tell me this, I don’t believe as as an entrepreneur and someone who’s done a lot of sales and business development marketing, I don’t believe you’re going to get mass adoption of any crypto unless you have a marketing business development strategy to put your crypto in the hands of end users.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yep. Again, I would I would agree with you the only thing that I think that might change that might alter that is the geopolitical area and the economy, the global economy. I think those two things if things heat up and we saw a little bit of it with Bitcoin, but again, it’s still speculation. It’s not anything about adoption. But I think that if there comes a point to where privacy is really again, being hampered and people are looking for a way out and they’re looking for escape out, they will adopt these techniques. Jeez to help them and I watched to their watched one interview and listen to another one. The CEO of beam with Jeffrey from uptrend and bad crypto with fluffy pony. And again, they’re talking about privacy in these privacy coins. Is there a true application for them other than nefarious reasons? And right now today, like I said, No, but if you let things blow up on the geopolitical stage, or you let the economy begin to really tank hard, that I think we might see some adoption.

Rob McNealy
Well, I would say that privacy is a very big deal. And it will be a very big deal when people start realizing that it’s easy to figure out how much someone how much money someone has, or if you’re a retailer how much money your competitor and your competitor has. So I absolutely think that privacy coins will be an issue and they’re not an issue now, because no one’s actually using them. And or using crypto and I would say the same thing goes for taxes. I think the Number one objective retailers will have when it comes to accepting crypto will be the tax implications and the accounting nightmare associated with the currently under US law. However, you don’t hear that objection really being brought up very much because no one’s accepting crypto. Yet it’s not happening. And I can tell you, I used to own brick and mortar store, I’ve set up my own point of sale. And I can tell you, I understand the accounting and the tax nightmare of dealing with it. And I can tell you, that will be one of the biggest objectives or objections that retailers have, but you don’t hear that complaint out there because people aren’t using crypto yet. And and I know that’s a heretic, or heretical statement that I’m making, but it’s a fact. And I think once the retailer’s start getting wind of understanding how much of a pain in the ass it is, they’re not going to want to use it unless crypto solves a really, really big problem. For them, and for most retailers, right now crypto does not solve a problem for them, it actually gives them a lot of problems.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Right? Now what will change the game, it’ll be interesting to see will be backed, right. So backed has a very robust roadmap that they are going to implement the first they’ve already implemented, which was the warehousing of digital assets. The next one, of course, there’s the options and the futures and the ETF features. And then after that, I think we will see them begin to shift their attention toward commerce, and that’s where the Starbucks and Microsoft their partnerships are going to be key. And what are they working on that they’re going to roll out? And I told people listen back was under the radar for 15 months. No one brings a word of that project. No one knew they were working on no one had been out of the blue. They came out and they said, we’re working on a platform that’s going to do XYZ and everyone was caught off guard by the people. been working on this for months, probably over a year now, on this Starbucks, Microsoft, whatever platform they’re going to roll out, we will hear an announcement come out soon, indicating that they’re going to roll out a actual product that will accept digital assets at Starbucks, and that I think will be a game changer.

Rob McNealy
I think it will, I think it will be too I think it’s going to be someone who’s actually engaging with retailers and create a situation or product or, you know, present crypto in a way to those retailers that it solves a problem for them, or they think they can make more money from it to overcome the problems associated with implementing crypto right now. And there’s very few projects out there that do that the way we structured today, we structured tossed around that principle to understand that if you’re going to onboard people for mass adoption, you’re going to have to have a sales component marketing component and a customer service component to help bring these people onto the platform. And you got to present crypto to the people where crypto solves a big problem for them. That’s the only place you’re going to get adoption. I don’t think it’s an accident or coincidence that mass adoption hasn’t happened. And the The fact is most crypto products are run by developers that hate sales, marketing, business development. And so to me, if your project is instruction to do those activities and embracing doing those activities, you’re not going to be successful even if your market cap has a lot of investors. I think that’s going to change over the next few years is that once some crypto star King actual customers, whatever those projects are going to quickly upset the apple cart when it comes to market cap.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yep. And you know, the news that they add, I found it interesting and and I think it was in Lw on the value that Daniel Whitmore that posted a tweet about Kelly lafleur. I find it very interesting. She’s now in Congress, and she’s now going to be head of the committee that actually deals with the CFTC and he Asked if that was a conflict of interest. Is that good for the crypto space or all of the above? I find it very interesting that they’ve allowed her Nick Kelly lafleur was the CEO of backed, and she gave up that title and gave it over to and I forgot the gentleman’s name that that replaced her. I know Adam White is going to become, I think President or CEO. But Adam white came from Coinbase. But the reality is, you’re putting some of that stature at the head of the committee that oversees the CFTC. Come on, seriously. I don’t know. I smell something cooking. I don’t know what’s cooking, but something’s cooking.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I think it’s going to be interesting in the United States, especially with the regulatory stuff that’s coming out. The good thing is where we’re going to be falling out in the as far as I can tell, by definition and the way we launch we’re got we’re going to be a commodity we’re not actually going to be considered and regulated as a crypto under what the CFTC and the SEC are coming up with four definitions and they’re defining the city. Based on basically how they were launched if something security or commodity or what have you. So it’ll it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out from a regulatory perspective. Right now, though, I think the IRS is a much bigger issue than the securities exchange commission when it comes to crypto. And again, that goes back to I don’t believe people are complaining about the head because it’s not creating the problem for most people, because most retailers don’t accept crypto yet. But I do believe that the IRS rules are a worse fit for digital assets than the SEC rules are.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I agree, and that’s why the token taxonomy act is moving to Congress right now. And I think that once that gets moved to Congress, if it gets approved, and I think it has a good shot at getting approved, because I think there’s members of Congress that have an interest to make sure it gets approved, because they’re part of it as well. That has a de minimis rule that says that, hey, listen, you can spend six 700 bucks of crypto a day and you don’t have to report that as taxes. You can use it as Currency when that happens, like I actually had an interview last week, and I told them the exact same thing. They were like, why don’t you use crypto in your daily life? I’m like, because I’m not gonna pay the taxes on spending crypto makes no sense. But the moment that rule comes out and I can now use it, heck, I’ll use crypto to spend for everything. I’ll pay utilities with it, how buy things in the store with that I’ll do everything with it, because I can without getting taxed. But right now, you’re not going to tax me. You know, capital gains tax on crypto, my use on purposes doesn’t make sense.

Rob McNealy
Absolutely. And I think that’s something needs to be addressed. And what bothers me a little bit is that the organization’s these crypto projects that did illegal Icos and got a slap on the wrist, the ones that have the tremendous amount of money in the bank, right now, are not hiring the lobbyists to make this happen.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Right.

Rob McNealy
And that doesn’t make any sense to me if they really believe in the crypto future and they really believe that these things will happen. Do they can spend a few minutes bucks in get every vote, they need to pass some legislation, like the token taxonomy act, but you’re not seeing that. And that, to me is surprising, because those projects, the ones that have a lot to benefit, you know, if people, you know, can get the regulations change there, it will absolutely help adoption. But if you go look at even the biggest projects, they don’t have sales and marketing people, you know, go look at a theorem, who’s their sales and marketing people, they don’t have them. So, you know, they’re not really thinking about it. But the problem is, they’re not talking to customers. And ultimately, if you talk to customers like I do, where I go talk to retailers, because I view the retailer’s as our customer, and you go talk to those retailers about their pain points and the things that they are interested in or the things that they’re not interested in, you have a very clear picture of what you need to do with crypto to make it so those retailers will adopt it. And I don’t see any of that happening from the big major products out there like a theory of EOS or blockstream or any of those organizations.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, the only organization I think that might be putting the lobbying arm in place is the digital Chamber of Commerce. I think they published something maybe middle of last year, maybe early last year talking about putting in a lobbying arm and I don’t know if Queen center teamed them with them and coin base or whatever. But I know for a fact i think i think they did. I’ll look that up. But I think that the digital Chamber of Commerce has put in place a lobbying arm to work with Congress on this, but I’m not. I don’t know that for certain I think they’re, well.

Rob McNealy
I hope they do and I hope they deal with the IRS thing more so than the SEC thing. Because if you look at so far, all the people that are talking about crypto and the regulations, everything stemmed around securities offerings, rather than taxing and to me the taxing issues more important and far more important, and I’m, I’m not a securities attorney, but I’ve looked at a lot of securities laws and a lot of rules and regulations. And to me, the security last mostly fit, to be honest. And that’s why we launched the way we did. We didn’t Do an Ico we didn’t do a token sale. We never sold tokens or coins. We didn’t collect personal information when when people went to our faucets and got our supply, and we did so so we weren’t a security. And you know what, it only took me a couple weeks of reading up on things and talking to a few attorneys to figure out that the utility token thing was nonsense. And so, but the IRS, that’s a bigger problem, because I know a lot about taxes too, because I do a lot of my own bookkeeping and stuff. And so yeah, I think the tax thing is the much bigger problem. And I can tell you this, I’m reading right now. taxation and I don’t even understand how the miners deal with it, you know, we just set up block producers for task, and it gets it pays out, like every day a little bit, you know, and it’s like, oh, I don’t even want to deal with the taxes. I’m dealing with this because it’s a big thing. It’s a big pain and and then you get into retailers, and then trying to figure out all that kind of stuff with how the retailers have to track this stuff. That’s a big pain too. And so if you We’re not going and trying to hold the hand of a retailer and you want them to use your project. I just don’t see a doubt. I don’t see any desire for retailers to go through all the headache, because there’s no really no upside for, because for the most part, there’s not that many people that want to pay in crypto at this point, either.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
No, there’s not. And that is chicken with chicken in the egg situation. You know, I think if there are more places that they would and it was an tax on it, then you would be there. But at the same time, I think that if you know, if the users really there, then the retailers would be motivated to do it and the users not there. So chicken take

Rob McNealy
that. Absolutely. So what do you think’s going to happen by the end of 2020? What would be your big predictions for the industry going forward this year?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, couple of them. So of course price and everybody’s, you know, wondering what’s going to happen with price I think this having coming up in April of May. It’s going to have an impact and I think that impact will be like the two previous Things that we had, I think we will see a surge in the price of digital assets across the board. I think there will be an old season that will happen. And I think that that’s going to also push up. And I think bitcoins dominance, of course, is approaching 70%. But I think that we will see that equalize out. And I think it will lose dominance to some of the old coins moving up as this old season happens. So direct prices on it, who knows? I mean, I’ve seen now I’ll tell you because I collect all the news. And I look at all the news all the time, both technical analysis, price analysis, I think most people who are fair minded trying to look at this right, you know, getting back to all time highs 20 K, by the end of the year, reasonable. You know, maybe we’ll get to 4050 K, maybe Maybe, maybe not. Anything above that out of the out of the question, if you asked me. When you look at the technology itself, blockchain technology, I think you’re going to see a lot of development happen with a lot of the projects and the ones that I’m seeing again in the news all the time, they’re always there. And I even said, I know it will shoot me for your brain and stuff first. But Tron I’m telling you, it’s in the news every day. It’s not a day goes by my brief goes out that runs and I mentioned, tron chain link cardano I Oda. These projects are Ethereum is constantly changing. There was an article the other day about a theorem. Some of your largest enterprises are using a theorem. And actually one of them was talking about using the public chain instead of a private chain for a project. And so that goes again to show that I think it’s going to be like the internet and the internet. When they first came out. Everyone was all we’ve got to be having an intranet, and eventually that just dispelled and everybody was on the internet. I think the same things that happened with the public private within the Digital Asset space, I think you’re going to see a lot of people try to do these private chains, but eventually going to find out it’s nothing more than a glorified database. Less Move it all to the public chain, where there’s real security and yada, yada. Now you will need something like z k snarks for changing privacy and things like that. But I think that’s going to get solved. So projects will continue to develop, I think, to innovate and move toward the end of 2020. I think we’re going to be surprised at which projects take off.

Rob McNealy
Very cool. Paul, where can people find out more about you since they can’t email you?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Well, my website, the crypto curator is the easiest way. And once you’re on the crypto curator, you have links to all the places whether I’m on Twitter or telegram, or YouTube or action on YouTube, key base, things like that. But yeah, if they get to my website, they can contact me all over the place.

Rob McNealy
Paul, thank you so much for coming on the show D I’ve enjoyed our chat.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Hey, thanks, Rob. Thanks for having me on.

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Paul McNeal – The Crypto Curator

Paul McNeal, The Crypto Curator, talks with Rob McNealy about the future of crypto and his experiment in not using email.

Michael Hiles – CEO of 10XTS Transcript

Michael Hiles - 10xts

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Okay, I am excited today. So today I’m talking to Michael Hiles. He is the CEO of 10XTS, which is a company out of Ohio that is in the regulatory FinTech space. And he’s also a second amendment guy. So I’ve been real excited to want to get on the show here so we can talk about some things. So, Michael, how are you today? Hey, how are you?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Thanks for having me.

Rob McNealy
Oh, well, I appreciate it. You know, it’s funny when we were kind of connecting on this, I thought it was interesting that you and I have been connected on social media going back to 2011 at this point. So you and I are both old school social media guys way before crypto even existed. And I think that’s kind of cool.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yes, sir. I actually predate the internet. I ran like bulletin boards on dial up modems, some old old dude here. So

Rob McNealy
I wasn’t I didn’t I wasn’t fortunate enough because I didn’t have family that was very technologically savvy. So I didn’t really get into computers much in any way till I was probably in college. Back in the 90s. So yeah, I wasn’t fortunate enough to have exposure to computers at a young age. So I really wish I did at this point, because, you know, I ended up in this space and using it my whole life, but it’s kind of interesting. You know, I’m here now. So that’s all.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I was blessed. I got so lucky. My dad worked in sales for a software company in the 70s. So in 79, I started programming on mainframes. I was literally that kid. I was like eight years old.

Rob McNealy
You and Bill Gates,

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Mmm, yeah, but I don’t have Bill Gates his balance sheet. I made some bad decisions somewhere.

Rob McNealy
I think I think that’s the you didn’t pick the right parents, I think.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, I hear you. So, so.

Rob McNealy
Well, good. Well, good. Tell me about 10XTS. Yes. What do you What are you doing?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
So, 10XTS is a startup early stage tech company is kind of the product of my background. round my career progression, having been a tech guy my whole life and then seeing the emergence of the technology and from the nascent you know, hobbyist phase like all tech does into, like the enterprise usefulness, that hey, there’s something here I knew, you know, Bitcoin payments, those are all early stage use cases, you know, kind of the pioneer, but being an information architect and a data guy, I recognize the usefulness of being able to use the underlying technology for things like, you know, record keeping notary, you know, other functions that right now require intermediaries and third parties to, you know, give you an assertion that somebody is presenting a claim or a proof and you’ve got some way to validate that from a record standpoint. So my team back before 10 x Ts in the early 2000s we won a Smithsonian laureate award when they were still giving those out for being the first to connect a judicial management system, a case search system, like you go to your county clerk of courts. And we got an award for being the first to connect an old school legacy court clerk system to the web. So being able to go to a browser and do a search. And so I’ve worked with public record for a big chunk of my career and understand the nuances of the workflow of data getting onto the blockchain, which is probably as or more important than the data on the blockchain. So tenex ts really, you know, fast forward. Yeah, we recognize the opportunity to not necessarily be the blockchain, but to be the record keepers that connect real world documents and data to the blockchain for single source of truth efficacy of the data model. So little bit different approach them I’m a crypto guy in the sense that I love cryptocurrency and the emergence and evolution of technology, but we see ways to then, you know, build on top of that core underlying promise. How do we go in? And how do we bring capital efficiency in particular, because our underlying vision is economic inclusion, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. And I think if we can solve a few problems related to that across our population, we can start to break down some of these social barriers and some of these political barriers that has everybody literally ready to, you know, start throwing fast rocks at people from the tree tops, and that’s not going to be the solution.

Rob McNealy
Well, I agree with you. And I think it’s interesting out there, at least in the social media world, when you’re talking about crypto and blockchain kind of things, that people on the left, and I’m not a writer either, but the people on the left seem to be really adamantly opposed to anything that decentralizes yet they still complain that the political process is really corrupt. And so to me, it’s really confusing to me Ultimately why certain that certain kind of politically it’s it’s weird because it comes down to I think that ultimately certain individuals do want the control of government over certain things they absolutely want to control you. And when you say we want to cut government out of this to get get rid of political corruption and corporate corruption, they can’t understand the connection between the two. And they don’t understand the fact that technology can enslave or liberate depending on who’s running it and who, how its applied. And, you know, it’s interesting, I thought of all things that the people on the left would be the ones that would embrace this type of technology that is decentralization, enabling and what..

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I don’t understand it, I you know, I, so I’m in Ohio 8 district so I’m fortunate to have congressman Warren Davidson is my congressman. And so Warren has led some of the charge in DC with the finance Services Committee. And in fact, I’ve been to DC I’ve, you know, testified and participated in congressional roundtable from a policy standpoint on all of this. And, you know, David and I, we’ve talked back and forth about, you know, just the function of automating government, you know, the blockchain out of it, but just, you know, how do you automate things that are human powered processes today? In the past, I’ve had left elected officials, Democrats Tell me, because I actually talked to them, you know, like, I’m not like so polarizing. It’s like, gosh, I probably got as many democrat friends as a Republican friends, it’s like, but in terms of the discussion around the function of government, I’ve had elected officials tell me in the past that government as a social function employs a segment of the population that would deem to be otherwise functionally unemployable. I don’t know if that’s true. I mean, I get it, it’s like, well, if you’re going to give them things, at least make them productive in some capacity from a community standpoint. Now, I don’t know if other of my many government employee friends would agree with that. But I’m sure you know, they would be fairly incensed by it. Because I know on the other side of the equation, PhDs and really brilliant people that are also part of the government and work for the government or have government contracts. And so I don’t know what that dividing line is. Rob, I really don’t. It’s certainly interesting when it comes really down to transparency. I think that’s the big threshold of well, we can get away with things the way it works. Now. We won’t necessarily be able to do that if we’re subject to some other reporting and transparency regime.

Rob McNealy
I think people are very libertarian, when it comes to themselves, and very statist when it comes to other people.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Do as I say, not as I do.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I kind of think that’s how people are. I think they’re wired that way. I think that they want the maximum amount of freedom for themselves, but they certainly want to create rules for other people. Maybe as a form of self defense. Maybe that’s why that is that way.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Emotional intelligence? I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know what it is safety in numbers? Fight or flight?

Rob McNealy
I don’t know cuz I, I don’t want to control other people. So honestly, I know, I don’t want the response of I don’t want the responsibility to control other people. But there’s a lot of people that do think not only that they should do that, but they’re entitled to tell other people what to do. My mother is a great example of that. She cared. Yeah, my mom would totally be a Karen totally. You know, it’s all about the rules and you know.

My parents. It’s funny because my parents, I grew up in the Detroit area, and we were, my dad was a conservative, like they were conservative. So they were huge rule followers. That was their mindset. But they also didn’t understand that a lot of the rules were designed, they didn’t see how rules screwed them. And I remember this one time, and it was one of the first times I kind of had an understanding of that maybe things aren’t always what I thought they were like when I was 10. And I remember maybe nine, and my neighbor’s dad, across the street, ran a construction company and my dad needed a load of dirt. He had a dump truck kind of thing in the neighborhood. And my dad, and I was really good friends with the sun. And my dad says, one day, you know, your buddy’s dad’s a tax cheat. And I’m like, What are you talking about? He’s like, well, he made me pay him in cash. He didn’t want me to give him a check. So he doesn’t want to pay taxes on that. I’m like, that sounds like a good deal. I was like, and I’m like, why would you want to be deck? And it was?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
It’s call “none ya.” None ya business.

Rob McNealy
But I left it. I mean, I’m 48 this year, you know, and I’d like that left an impact on me because I saw like, Well, why should he have to pay taxes on that? Like I was just a kid, right? But my dad who was like this, basically it was a teacher. He was a he was a rule follower. He was locked in there was an employee miserable in his job. And the neighbor was self employed, had his own business. And it was just interesting to me how I remember what I remember about this. My dad was incensed by it. Like he felt it was unfair, that this other guy didn’t want to pay whatever the taxes were, or whatever, you know, and it’s interesting because I remember that to this day, and I left an impact. But I also see you know, my dad, if you ever read the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, my dad was the poor daughter had that mindset. It was very, this this mentality that if someone else gets ahead, they’re getting screwed in some way. And but I look back now and even then, when I was growing up, I saw that my My parents made their own decisions that made their own lives miserable. And it’s funny because even as a kid, I remember going into therapy now, but I remember as a kid, you know?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
We’re Gen X guys, man. I mean, we’re getting to that point, right? We got to confront these things.

Rob McNealy
Dude, no, no crap. But I remember when I was a kid, like I was telling my parents when I was like, in my teens, because I was working, and I was a busboy of all things at one point, making like really good money in a high, you know, high class hotel and stuff. And I was making more money than my mom. Like literally. And I said, Mom, why are you doing this job that makes you miserable? I have security. I’m like, No, you don’t? Yes, I do know you know, you don’t have any security like a fire you tomorrow. You have no control over and I recognize that as a kid. And my and it was interesting how like it made us clash and and so when it comes back around and like, Why do certain people want to control the people and why they reject these kind of decentralized technologies. I always think back to my parents because they’re that quintessential Karen kind of person that wants to do that. And that’s like, Wow, you guys are brainwashed. That’s all I can think of. They’re just brainwashed.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, I mean, it’s a tough thing when you live your whole life with filters and predispositions and social norms. And, you know, it blows my mind though, because and I, you know, I don’t want to get off on the tangent from a boomer versus younger people thing. But you’ve got folks that are like, counterculture in like, the hippie generation, like, we want to change this, we want to construct a new, you know, way of doing things, which Alright, cool. You know, there were certainly problems that were carried over from before. Then now, like, what happened, guys, I mean, it’s so funny, because when I was a teenager, I saw Peter Paul and Marian concert and their very last tour. And so it was like 87 and I’m thinking, hey, it’s hippie stuff. Let’s dress up like hippies. Well, so I got tickets to this concert, not realizing it looks at Memorial Hall, which is very nice upscale, you know, venue in Cincinnati and You know, I go in there and it’s like literally all these yuppies who were, you know, in their 30s at the time, but they’ve got like their sweaters wrapped around their polo shirts. And if you remember when they drink sweaters down their backs kind of a thing and, and here we are me, my girlfriend dress like hippies and it’s like, a something happened. Come on guys. Anyway, sorry. I didn’t mean to digress off into it people.

Rob McNealy
Well, you know, what happened to the hippies is that they were born at a time where the United States was the only manufacturing power left on the planet. And anybody can throw rock and make a ton of money. So and and you know what, at that point, you know, people like well, I really liked the Mad Men house and I really liked the nice cars and having two cars and, and I think that’s what happened ultimately, is that, you know, life was life was pretty good. Let’s just put in perspective, life was pretty good. And they grew up in a time where you didn’t have to even go to college to make good money, and you didn’t even have to Have a college loan and you could still, you know, because there wasn’t student loans like there are now that you could afford to pay for college and not come out as come out of college with no debt and work your way through. They can’t do that anymore. And, and so I think that, you know, they were launched just from the facet of when they were born, they were able to grow up in their young as young adults in a time when the United States very prosperous and, and I definitely think that skewed their vision and I think that’s also the opposite of what’s I think it’s the same opposite effect happening now millennials and Gen Xers. I mean, I was caught in student loan prep, too, because I was given bad advice from boomers. You know, just invest in any major regardless, you’ll it’ll pay off and, you know, you’ll make 10 times the amount of money that you invest in, like, that’s worship. But you know, you learn, live and learn, but I think that definitely is, you know, made some impacts in society on how we’re viewing these kind of things.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah. Then I did the inevitable. This is what I look at as an entrepreneur. I’m looking down the road You know, from CEO and my crystal ball lens of having several decades of technology experience and multiple, you know, product life cycles and technology cycles and saying, okay, that regardless of what happens, my entire career was built on how do I make things more efficient? How do I create tools? And how do I, you know, deconstruct the silos that drove power bases inside of corporate organizations, for example, you know, when you look at the baby boomer way of management and operation, you bring up Mad Men, all human powered political process. I call that fixed overhead. And so if you want to be relevant in the current market place, as technology people, and I’ve always viewed technology shifts as the opportunity to do a couple of different things first, you can certainly go in and be the Absolute disrupter be Jeff Bezos right? I mean, be the guy. Of course it fully the magnitude of the disruption didn’t fully materialize for a couple decades for Amazon. But you know, His goal was to just go and slaughter it. Hence the saying your margin is my opportunity. The other side of the coin as well, there’s already entrenched channel partners and people that are in these industries. Will they pay you to catch the wave and become more efficient, more competitive, without you having to become that business? I don’t have to be Whole Foods and be in the grocery business to go and help say Kroger be more efficient. They’re already in the grocery business. I don’t start a new grocery. And so back to the crypto space is one of the things that we’ve looked at. From a blockchain standpoint. Well, you know, we’re good. We’re experts in the technology, software and data. How do we then identify the opportunities to go to existing markets, whereas a lot of people are saying, Oh, no, we want to be Come on broker dealer, we want to become an exchange. I’m like, heck with that, you know, that comes with a lot of regulatory overhead responsibility, compliance things that, you know, that’s not what we do. Right? We could, but I would rather be the guy that says, I’m the expert at the tool. I know your problem, probably better than you know, your problem at the technology level. So you go out there and you’d be the bank, you go out there, you be the broker dealer, but recognize that your model is going to have to shift in order to stay competitive in the marketplace. Because if you don’t buy my stuff, your competitors going to, and it’s just a function of knocking on doors, and it’s a numbers game for me and for my company, to go out and find the use cases that are going to onboard and say, Yep, I get it. I get what you’re trying to do. This is a cost cutting measure opens up new markets.

Rob McNealy
Well, I definitely think that blockchain technology has a lot of interesting uses in business. And I definitely think that you can gain some really interesting efficiencies with blockchain technology that maybe smaller to mid tier companies could use them to take some of that market share away from the big entrenched holders. I’m sorry, you know, companies that are in that space, because the bigger the company, the less risk adverse they are, you know, you know, you know, GM, and you see how it is right now, right, GM and all these companies now are deciding they’re going to go into electric vehicles, like a decade after Elon Musk decided to start, you know, do the innovation and now they’re like, okay, there’s a market. We’re going to go in there and try to crush it now. But I think that this, these technologies, whether it’s just for payments with blockchain stuff, I think there’s amazing opportunity now that business people are starting to look at it. I think what was happening before is that most of these crypto projects were led not even by entrepreneurs, but just straight developers that maybe never even ran like their own business before. But they had an interesting idea of how technology could evolve. They created it but they didn’t really understand how to actually get people to use it. Get it out there absolutely adoption standpoint?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yep, absolutely. I mean, you look at the fact that the iPhone was released a year before the white which is basically around the same time as Bitcoin white paper came out and look at the contrast and adoption between, you know, the first smartphone versus this really nascent weird hobbyist technology that involves all these layers tantamount to you know, having to fire up your modem and change your dialing string and get your command line interpreter to telnet and you know, some other computer network. And then you look at the that transition that inflection point of well, when AOL started putting out CD ROM installers with an awesome user interface in every shrink wrap, plastic bag, partnership deal. You know, they could Steve Case could possibly go and sign up at the time right now, and pushing out millions and millions and millions of this really awesome user experience. So that’s where I think that a lot of the disconnect is at for really any technology but in you know, particularly adoption of blockchain cryptocurrency technologies, nobody wants to see how the sausage is made, just bring me a plate of bratwurst right, I’m ready to eat it. And I think that’s where the technologists get so enamored with their own, you know, source code and their GitHub repos that, you know, they forget that the average person can’t even change the windows settings of their, you know, basic visual device on their laptop, right? We’re not that far along, guys, after all these years.

Rob McNealy
Well, well, I can tell a lot because you know, and I love developers, don’t get me wrong. I’m not anti developer. They just have a very different set of skills and a different view.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Oh, of course. Yeah. I lead a bad merry band of developers, you know, I mean, I am a developer. So it’s really interesting. You know, I like in work in development, working with developers as really like managing a rock band. Right. So it really is. It’s the parallels are so you know, you got it somewhere between being your psychologist and, you know, the communicator, the spouse, dad when it’s necessary. It’s this weird dynamic to get true r&d developers, people that know how to create something out of nothing, because it’s all function of motivation. Right is how do I get Stephen King to go into his dungeon and come out with the next best seller? Right? And that’s, that’s really how do you guide that as a CEO of a tech company as it gets interesting.

Rob McNealy
But to use your analogy, right, there is no, no person in their right mind would let the band determine the marketing and promotion strategy for their album either.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
No, no, no, they have no idea. They’re out there on the street corner, just, you know, doing the, you know, minstrel for free with the hat, you know?

Rob McNealy
Busking in busking in the subway. Right?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Exactly.

Rob McNealy
And so that and that’s part of the problem with a lot of developers and engineers. This is just an engineering mindset. I’ve worked in a lot of engineering companies, big companies, and this is pretty consistent is that the build that they will come mindset? Is what it comes down to. And unfortunately build it, they will come doesn’t usually work. That’s right. It’s a myth. And, and it doesn’t matter if you have the best technology. Doesn’t it med the best marketing technologies are the ones that win. And what that means is, even if you have the best technology, if you don’t have a way in a strategy to put that solution in the hands of the people that it solves their problem, it doesn’t matter. It’s not going to get adopted. And and it’s funny because I’ll have this discussion with engineers and a lot of them. They think they’re smarter than everybody else. And that’s okay, because they need to be smart. But if I said, an engineer has to have a certain skill set and intelligence level, and it’s a trained career path, that they’re professional, they would all agree with that. But then I said, you know salespeople and marketers are also a skill set that go through training and experience. Absolutely. And it’s like no, no, that doesn’t matter. Anybody can market I’m like, that’s horseshit. That’s absolutely nonsense.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
The disconnect that I’ve identified is this magical little thing called empathy. Right? It’s like engineers a very rational construct logic, a plus b equals C. And as we know, human beings are also very emotional. And we all share 11 of the same emotions. And you’ve got the, you know, want to be Spock engineers over here. Well, that just doesn’t make sense. So like, Well, of course, it doesn’t make sense because people don’t make decisions particularly make decisions to buy things based on making sense. No, they’re going to absolutely make an emotional decision. And then when the logic comes into play, it is rationalizing their emotional decision and supporting their confirmation bias that we all have to a massive degree. The older I get, the more I realized that, you know, Hey, you know what I thought about the world. I don’t I’m not the smartest guy in the room. In fact, as a CEO, that’s my mantra is I want to be the dumbest guy. And I want to surround myself by awesome people that are hell smarter than I am. Right? And then how do you be the manager of the band and get them to work together and get over their petty bullshit, because when teams on stage and they’re jamming it out, and you got 70,000 people in the stadium audience cheering, and here’s my money, take my money. That’s when you know that things are actually working out. That’s, that’s my metric.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I agree. And I can always tell when a developer is in over their head when it comes to understanding how to promote their solution or their project is one. I’ll use the Linux analogy, and they’ll say, look, Linux is great. It’s an amazing software. It’s open source. It’s kind of decentralized in a lot of ways, but Linux never made Any market share never got market share on desktop. And Linux servers, which are amazing, are still are very niche because the only people that care about them are developers. So, so so Linux is never like I’ve had developers literally Michael, tell me that Linux is mass adopted. And I’m like out of your minds, you’re absolutely out of your mind.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I mean, you can argue that because it’s embedded in the bowels of the apple lap, you know, the Apple device that, you know, the core OS is a Linux variant. So they’re technically not wrong, but they’re not wrong for all the wrong reasons.

Rob McNealy
Well, you know, I think the I think the block chains that win are going to be the same way no one the average person on the street and by the way, I spend my time as an entrepreneur talking to potential customers, before I ever decide to build a business or code a project now, and and to me, you should have a customer first and then build the solution for that individual customer. That’s how you build a business at least my 20 years of being out entrepreneur, that’s what I’ve come up with at least. And the customers in the world right now do not care about the centralization. And so if your big thing in development is decentralization, most people don’t give a shit about it. People want their problem solved. And if decentralization solves that problem, they still don’t care how the problem is solved. They just want it solved. And and I think that’s where a lot of people miss out. And they don’t understand that. I think a lot of developing lead crypto product teams are out there. And they’re trying to basically want to educate you on why you should be mad and only like decentralization. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense because I don’t care. It’s like, you’re not going to get anywhere with that kind of methodology of marketing come up with a solution that makes sense for them and just make it work in the background.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, I mean, the problem I found that the furthest throughout it, particularly as an entrepreneur, and this is where you cross over into the VC world where you know, who’s crystal ball and what’s the what’s the time horizon of the crystal ball that you’re looking at in terms of market emergence and development, right? You have to sort of be at that point, which means and what’s the old saying that if Henry Ford would have been completely customer lead, that they would ask him for a faster horse or something to that particular effect. And I think that there’s, there’s an interesting balance in technology cycles. As I’ve studied in my whole career right now, I’ve been front and center watching the emergence of, you know, every technology literally since the mainframe, and seeing how it goes from the hobbyist. And, you know, really the guy that wrote the book on its Geoffrey Moore, I don’t know if you ever read Crossing the Chasm, Geoffrey Moore, but I don’t know. I know. I haven’t read it. It’s an amazing read. And if you’re into technology into technology markets and understanding technology businesses, it really is the Zay of the bell curve of the adoption cycle for the stuff. And where do you hit that inflection point, timing the money timing the product, being able to To hit the ground running, that’s our big gamble as entrepreneurs is like, I know all my ideas are good, right? I know that there’s market. It’s a function of living and surviving until you hit that inflection point, right? The cash burn is the cash burn. So, can you stay ahead of the cash burn? Don’t run out of money, right? And then if you’re right there, when the lightning is ready to strike, bam, you know, there comes the bolt. And you know, that’s where the it really is a lightning strike function for a unicorn billion dollar tech company.

Rob McNealy
Well, I think that’s where the entrepreneurs come in. And I and I really think that entrepreneurs are able to see all the pieces like that and but still be able to jump down into the details and the nitty gritty stuff. And I think timing is a hugely important and that’s one factor. We don’t control necessarily when something is ready. But to understand that timing and being able to mitigate the risk and say, Look, I you know, You’re Henry Ford example about trying to listen to, you know, customers and say they’ve come up with a better horse. Well, I think the reality is he’s not right or not wrong there. And I think this is why is that a good entrepreneur can see, okay, I see this new technology, but how to apply that technology to solving a problem. And then figuring out, again, goes back to market segmentation, and then strategy for you know, putting that solution in front of those people. You know, Steve Jobs was amazing at this, like he understood that there was this friction with music distribution, and technology could solve that. Right now, a lot of people went out sit there and complain, oh, a lot, I think in a modern example of music as people would like, I would like, you know, ice cream trucks to have music records going around streets. That would be maybe what people would say would be easier than thinking in terms of digitizing music and distributing music a different way. And I think you’re right. A good entrepreneur, though, will solve that and figure out that thing and tell people look, yeah, your idea might work. But I got a better solution for that problem. And that’s this way, this is the solution. And that’s why i think that i think crypto so far in a lot of ways has been held back by the fact that you haven’t you don’t really have enough entrepreneurs involved with these projects yet. And it’s changing. It’s changed a lot just in the last two years. But so much of it right now has been led by developers who are build it and they will come and I think that that’s changing and..

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Well the definitely don’t know securities laws because unfortunately fun funding and financing a project on a purely decentralized basis and how it was funded, it certainly run afoul of the regulatory regime and you know, that’s why we just filed a Delaware C Corp and sold equity. Like everybody else’s like guys see how it goes. We’ll get there.

Rob McNealy
Well, it wasn’t that complicated to sort out like when we launched right after the height of the bull run in 2018. Everybody told just do an Ico you can raise money. Money. And that’s why we looked at doing a token project is that we were interested ourselves personally, of doing a startup and we wanted to learn what the Ico process was about. That’s why we were looking at that. And then when we said, hey, let’s launch a project, and we were originally gonna do an Ico because I had an idea for another business. And I thought, wow, as an entrepreneur, the idea that you could raise a whole lot of money. You don’t have to go through VCs and you don’t give away equity as an entrepreneur like hell. Yeah, that’s amazing, right? But through our diligence process realized we realized pretty quick that that’s that’s got to be illegal. What I said, Where did I go? There’s no way we can do this. And we still had lawyers, I was coming and this is ridiculous. I’m not a lawyer, but I worked for a lot of lawyers and my day job. And I was talking to lawyers and like I tell utility took I go, where does the where does the SEC recognize the term utility token they don’t, that’s not even a term that’s just made up. And that’s why we launched Originally the way we did so we’re not a security but it’s interesting like pretty much every IC on the United States was in security. And you and I were talking a little bit about that online about, you know, the securities and the Icos and and where that is right now, what do you think’s going to happen with the Ico world? I mean, going forward, it’s amazing idea that you can raise money this way. But I also think there’s a lot of problems with that, which.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
There really is, and I’ve been fairly prolific about my opinions. And, you know, it’s created a bit of a barrier between me and the traditional anarcho capitalist crypto guys, because they’re all about, you know, all the way up to and including, you know, disrupting government. You know, they see government as an quote unquote, intermediary, I don’t know that I agree with them. And I don’t want to go there necessarily in this conversation, but, you know, in terms of needing new laws that define things that don’t need be find is problematic. We don’t need To change securities laws, the United States of America already recognizes literally a jelly doughnut as an investment contract based on the way I sell it to you, if I promise you a rate of return, that if you buy this jelly doughnut from me today for 100 bucks and a week from now you can sell it for 1000 get in on it now. FOMO, right, that that, in that instance, created a de facto security that’s a problem for people out there on YouTube with you know, their unregistered broker dealer status of pimping a particular quote unquote, opportunity. Right. And that’s where the SEC very adamant and I agree with it, because when you remove particularly in finance, a certain amount of regulation, the bad actors immediately move in. Yes, he doesn’t care, right. The only thing they care about is protecting the actual individual from fraud and inflammation disparity is what creates fraud. And you know, that that’s the reason we have this robust set of rules that is transformed America’s financial market into probably the most stable equity market in the world, consistently over time. So a certain amount of that regulatory framework is certainly necessary based on case precedent and enforcement, which is driven largely by complaint, not because, you know, sec commissioners are sitting around like, hey, how do we screw with the little guys today? Right? I mean, it’s literally, it’s almost exclusively complaint driven. So I don’t know that we need to change it. And then when you look at the other side of the equation when it comes to regulatory crowdfunding, for example, that’s not been adopted since the title three jobs act of 2012. Right. I don’t even think that regulatory crowdfunding was raised a billion dollars combined since it was enacted. So.

Rob McNealy
I think My take is and having not been originally a securities guy, but when we launched two years ago, I took a deep dive and learned as much as I could about securities offerings and at the state level federal level. I took like a deep dive for six weeks and I felt very comfortable at that point of my own opinion that every Ico was illegal under US law at the time. And what I did, but I do think the the area of regulation that no one’s really talking about so much that I think actually is an impediment to adoption is the IRS treatment of cryptocurrencies as property. I think those regulations do not fit. Currently, I do believe that even if the IRS just decided to elect to treat cryptocurrency for instance, as a foreign currency I think would do a lot to speed up adoption. And I think because I think the the accounting, basically requirements that businesses and even individuals have to do What from the crypto side of things to actually use it as a buying, you know, something that’s being used for buying and selling goods and services? I believe the IRS is going to be the biggest part of it not the SEC rules.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, I mean, right now we pay taxes if we make a profit because we bought, you know, a Beanie Baby at a garage sale and sold it on, you know, eBay for you know, profit margin. Right. Right. We’re supposed to report that as income. It gets really complicated when you get into high volume transactional stuff. And that’s that’s really what the technology enables that the current intermediary status of the market is not prepared to handle right when we change hands for equity ownership. I have a token, for example, that represents shares of stock. There’s no such thing as a bear stock certificate, right? I mean, we, we register our names and our contact information, the DTC handles, the transferor etc. It’s got to be done through a transfer agent. There’s, you know, a very well defined process and be in that’s just simply the validation part of the market right where that trust and those trust layers have had to be abstracted out and human powered process. Once again, this guy says that the sky is a true and valid owner of the stock and he’s truly in validly, you know, transferring it selling it to this other person will write it down and keep the third party record and how the blockchain can do that, right. I mean, but the law is not there yet to support that layer of automation, and it requires somebody to hold a license for whatever reason. It’s like I laugh about custody, you know, everybody argues about custody and custody of digital assets of like, you know, wonderful lights went out. There would be no custody, right? The blockchain has the custody so you banks can go away now, do you need a license to have this particular type of an account to hold something on behalf of somebody else? Because it’s the blend of the existing, you know, laws. I don’t know. I’m not a lawyer. I get invited to lawyer conferences, but you know, it’s like this..

Rob McNealy
This, but I think that’s an interesting thing about the custody piece, right? Everybody’s like, Oh, you should just not your keys, not your crypto and the unforgiving nature, I think of crypto is also problem. And as I said, in our conference last, this last March, we hit we do an annual off chain conference, which is kind of a mix of crypto and prepping and preparedness and self defense and things like that. We’re doing the next one in February. And we talked, we talked a lot about this, because what you know, and I think it’s because the typical anarchist is broke, they don’t understand that, you know, if you take away banks, and third party, or third, you know, trusted parties that are holding your 401k funds and things like that. Now, what you’re, what you’re suggesting is people now have the equivalent of their life savings on a little device in their house. And now before you might have had a bank, supporting that with like armed guards and vaults and, you know, backup generators and all that and and now you’re saying the average person is in charge of all that stuff now to at their house. And man, that’s that’s just that’s a reach for me. I think that you know if crypto is going to be adopted, there absolutely needs to be, you know, third party custodians available, because I don’t think the average person can handle it and maybe I’m maybe I’m a jerk. But I just can’t imagine like, for instance, my Karen type mother, being able to handle like her social security, you know, on a blockchain and crypto and and I just don’t think that’s I don’t think it’s realistic to have that expectation that the average person can manage that at this point without like a big cultural and educational shift.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Now, I mean, it gets back to self sovereign identity, which you get a lot of people are working on that particular problem, that particular aspect of connecting to blockchain, right. How do I, how do I assert that the person who’s touching this device that’s conducting this transaction that’s going to be recorded on the blockchain? Because that’s really what I care about is how data gets To the blockchain, not what’s on the blockchain, right? So how do we assert and validate that this particular individual is actually who they say that they are? And so there’s a lot of that self sovereign trust, and how do we create those applications and identity verification? The problem that I see though, is that at scale, it gets pretty draconian pretty quick, because the real ultimate solution is, you know, binding your genome to hash value on a network something that scares the shit out of me.

Rob McNealy
Right? What could possibly could go wrong with that?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I saw the movie Gatica. I mean, I am I am clearly about bioethics. And, you know, this is where I, I think that we have to assert that’s true self sovereign part of the status. I don’t know what that means. I don’t know what that means in the future. I’m as equally excited for my kids as I am frightened for my kids. And that’s why I’m out for that’s why I’m trying to do what I do. At least with what I know how to With and, and, you know, hopefully we can push back against, you know, the the Karen’s of the world who want to enslave and entrap and, you know, and subjugate and and I don’t I’m not here to fight and argue over policy ever it’s just a function of, you know, can we create technology solutions to stupid human problems because we’re really only like a couple of levels above chimpanzees don’t crap at each other, you know, the trees.

Rob McNealy
I go like this, you know, I don’t you see this a lot in the crypto world and I think there’s a lot of I think there’s a lot of immaturity out there is that when people are like they cheerlead like China getting involved in embracing blockchain, I’m like, dude, you really don’t understand that a government like that embracing blockchain is going to be absolutely leverage to enslave those people. No, it’s not going to be it’s not going to be used to liberate the I mean, all right, that we got the government of Saudi Arabia, right. They’re still chopping people’s heads off publicly, right. I mean, I mean, Still, like Bronze Age kind of shit, and or like Dark Ages kind of stuff. And now you’re going to give them these tools that can, you know, I think could enslave.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, and the dichotomy with this is that I firmly believe the next global reserve currency will be a programmable digital currency format. Right? You’re basically saying a government accepts the risk of however long of transporting value from point A to point B, using this particular, you know, normalizing thing, you know, whether that’s conch shells, whether that’s the United States dollar or whether that’s, you know, the digital renminbi and, and it’s going to it’s going to happen and it needs to happen because, you know, the, the idea that I can actually carry money in my QuickBooks account, for example, as my actual Treasury or my wallet, that I can just simply pay vendors by transmitting not dollars, but US dollar currency. It’s through a government settlement system. Right. And we know that the US, you know, the Federal Trade. So the Fed is actually working on this, but they claim that their platform is not going to be ready until 2025. So, and I forget the name of the system. I wrote about it in my newsletter a few weeks ago, but they’ve been working on it. But now we got China piloting the digital Yuan, in a couple of provinces. They’re ahead of us, right, from a nation state standpoint. We’re so far behind in the United States. It’s frightening based on where our reserve status of currency is going to go back to France, right. There’s they’re studying it now.

Rob McNealy
Well, I do believe that at some point, the US dollar will no longer be the reserve currency and what that how that plays out for the average American I don’t think it’s going to be positive, to be honest. But, I mean, that brings us into the next phase. Right? We I think you and I both agree that technology is useful, but it can be used for good or bad. I think it’s just it’s just like any tool, right? But just like guns, right guns can be used for events, or they can be used to commit crimes. That doesn’t mean that the tool is bad. It just means that it’s better to have more guns in the hands of good people than in the bad. And I think that’s where we kind of also says, you know, you and I are kind of overlap there politically. So recently, you’ve been leading a little campaign in Ohio, tell me about that.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Well, it’s really an accident. So I’ve got political campaign management experience. I’m a marketing guy, you know, how to, you know, organize things. And so it’s carried me in it a lot of interesting places throughout my career. And so I saw what was going on in particular Virginia, but then Kentucky and Pennsylvania and some other states. Around the, you know, this idea of red flag laws and, you know the the ability for the government to suspend your rights without due process and come in and confiscate anything that you own out of your home, particularly one that has been enumerated in the Constitution, United States of America and defended multiple times through multiple Supreme Court cases. And here, we’ve got people, you know, saying, nope, we’re going to come in and we’re going to take away your gun. And I guess that was really a wake up point for me to see how they’re scrambling in Virginia, for example, to solve the problem, and recognizing that when the argument or the claim that the conservatives don’t know how to organize, right, it’s true to a certain degree, right. And if you believe that all Government is local. And you look at the approach that Virginia is taking, you’ve got the states that are these counties in the state of Virginia that said, okay, based on our government structure, we have a way to push back at a local level, we can have our county pass a resolution that essentially D funds enforcement activities of infringing enforcement is what it’s called. That’s directed by the state. Now, I’m not a constitutional scholar by any stretch of the imagination. So I can’t get into the, you know, is this largely just a symbolic thing? You know, there are other things to take into consideration, consideration, I don’t know, but I know that when I go down to my polling precinct to vote on everything, it starts with local, right. I mean, I have local bond issues. I have local candidates that are being elected to county offices and we don’t have the kinds of networks and communication frameworks, particularly in the state of Ohio, to rapidly organize and coordinate across the state teams that are essentially decentralized, right? You’re talking about a decentralization. But how do you get teams of committed volunteers citizens to work in their county? We have 88 counties in Ohio. And how do we get them to coordinate and work together to also pass model resolutions around this particular second amendment issue of red flag laws? Not just for these things, but then also in the future when somebody comes along and says, oh, we’re going to take this other right. How do we organize and structure and construct our our response in particular, and it goes back if you do a little homework in the war for independence, how the colonial You know, the colonials, the in the individual colonies in the cities and the towns and the villages operated for nearly a decade leading up to the actual war, was they created a de facto shadow government coalition of people and they call it a, they call it a community, or I’m sorry, a committee of safety. So there was a committee, there were several iterations of committees, and it was just regular people, regular prominent citizens in the community, that operated in a fashion to be communicators, to network with each other, and then ultimately to take action at the local level when necessary. But then how do I coordinate around with the other folks? Right? And so it’s the same communication distribution model, right? It’s how do you decentralize a organizational structure and target a particular issue in the Case passing red flag model ordinance line or a model resolution language at the county level, and then leaving the framework and in place, and particularly the state of Ohio, we are a state that enjoys the opportunity to put a signature campaign initiative onto a statewide ballot to even modify our constitution as a state, but that requires all the draconian regulations that they put in front of us, you know, we have to gather so many signatures within a certain amount of time and, and have so many counties represented, etc, etc. So, so I started this little group on Sunday, literally five days ago, just a sort of, you know, trial balloon and I created a Facebook group, it’s private, it’s hidden. You have to know somebody so there’s a velvet rope. We don’t take all comers. You have to literally be invited, invited in, and it’s still this phenomenal chaos but we went from zero to like to Well, thousand members of this group in five days, just people blowing this thing up because it really is a hot issue. It’s a big thing.

Rob McNealy
And I think that’s something you definitely need to work on because that’s that’s amazing that people are that concerned. And here in Utah, we are seeing something very similar happening to getting a lot of the gun rights groups are getting out ahead of some of the RPO stuff that’s coming out of our own state legislature. And you would think a state like Utah, which is, you know, definitely conservative in nature. That gun control bills wouldn’t be something that you would come up but I think they’re later I was told that there’s going to be multiple gun control related bills coming on and state legislature at least coming out of committee that, you know, we’re going to have to face here. And I think that’s what’s going to happen. I mean, in this country, we definitely have multiple cultures in this country from the coast. in the Midwest and the mountain states, where literally, people are very anti gun have never seen a gun before, you know, they’ve never actually shot a gun or been around a gun. But they definitely want to tell the other states what they can and can’t do. And I think Unfortunately, that’s going to change because, you know, we are culturally very different. And I think in the future, and I don’t have a crystal ball, but I think in the future, if there’s a time of crisis where say, you know, maybe it’s an economic collapse, or the US dollar, you know, kind of tanks or whatever, I believe the United States will break up, because I think we’re too culturally different. Now. In many parts of the country, what do you think?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I mean, I don’t want to see my nation balkanized. Because what that means is, is that the power centers and the resource centers are all going to be concentrated in urban areas. And and I don’t want it to turn into Judge Dredd, right with the mega trop Ulises. And then wasteland in between. If that’s what happens then obviously if we’re in the wasteland in between we are far more suited to take care of ourselves and restore a certain amount of functional self governance and you know community alignment at the localized level. My town has literally my county seat is my town. Now I’m wedged between a couple of bigger bigger metros, but I live north of Cincinnati and my town has 8000 people in a county of like 45,000 right on the border of Ohio and Indiana. And I think that we can probably figure out how to put some seeds in the ground and work together to you know, restore a certain amount of community. But we are at risk we’ve lost a lot of mercantile ability. At the local level, we’ve lost a lot of trade skills that are going to be necessary in order to maintain standard of living and we’ve lost a lot of access to, you know, other knowledge resources. And I don’t want it to be a choice where if you don’t want to live in a mega trop list that you relegated to some sort of feudal, agrarian sort of surf Lord the keep kind of a scenario and I don’t know I just let’s work together Let’s all work together right now to keep these kinds of things from happening. You know, I,

Rob McNealy
I, you know, I agree with you and it’s kind of weird I live it because I even though I have an MBA, last June, I graduated from welding school full year and a half program or two full time school at night for a year and a half just to be a hobby welder, because I wanted to learn an actual skill. And I think that going forward, you know, we’re going to have to go back and be willing to learn things that maybe we forgot, and to be more self sufficient. And I think that’s kind of the ethos of the whole decentralization mantra, but Michael, we’re running out of time here. Yeah, man can people where can people find out more about you?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Well, um, so the company side is 10 x Ts one zero x ts.com. We’re pretty narrow. So it’s not very exciting. If you go there, we talked about, you know, like FinTech and reg tech, you know, enterprise stuff. And then of course, I’m on social at Michael Hiles on Twitter. Hit me up on LinkedIn on a professional basis. I’m around a pretty easy to find. I’ve enjoyed it. Great conversation, man. I love Love, love the discussion.

Rob McNealy
Absolutely. And you know what, I’m going to hold you to that because we’re going to have more of these in the future. But Michael, thank you so much con today.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Thanks, Rob. I appreciate it. See y’all

Rob McNealy
have a great day.

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Crypto Euclid & Mystical Oaks Transcript

Crypto Euclid and Mystical Oaks from the Bitcoin Show

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Hey, welcome to the show today. This is Rob McNealy and today I am talking to two amazing crypto influencers who have been making me laugh for some time now, and I am feeling really excited that they decided to come on my little podcast. I’d like to welcome the show crypto Euclid and mystical Oaks. How are you guys today?

Crypto Euclid
We are fantastic. We’re a little cold here in Knoxville. It’s not cold today. Yeah, well, we had snow two days ago, but I guess that’s a little warmer today.

Rob McNealy
Snow in Tennessee is generally considered not a good thing from what I hear at least from my relatives that live down there. So a lot of my relatives there. There’s a little town in jellico, Tennessee. It’s in the northeast corner right off. I 75 it’s all my family lives in there.

Crypto Euclid
Oh, cool. Cool. That’s awesome. We’re actually Floridians. We don’t like to brag about that too much. But we’re actually from Florida born Well, not born and raised. But what Raised basically both of us were there for a long time, but we’ve been off oh really grow please do say something horrible.

Mystical Oaks
No, I was just gonna say no, I am definitely not an influencer.

Crypto Euclid
Oh shit. Yeah. Yeah You call this a bad word, sir man we don’t we don’t put on say no

Mystical Oaks
it’s not a bad idea. Yes it is not. I mean I don’t know some people think it’s a bad word but I hope that I do not influence anyone to do anything I think get outside Oh, maybe or laugh You know?

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, same I want to I want to influence people into knowing that you don’t have to be a piece of shit. Oh wow oh can we cuss on here I’m sorry.

Rob McNealy
You can say anything you want man.

Crypto Euclid
Awesome

I used to be a degenerate piece of crap about two years ago and I’ve gotten sober and I don’t Want to let people know that, you know, you can turn your life around? That’s that’s what I want to influence people.

Rob McNealy
What made you turn your life around?

Crypto Euclid
You know what it was? Question? Yeah, that great question. You know, I was I came to, you know, I’m 43 I came to the conclusion that I was basically just trying to kill myself, like, in a way by just drinking so much. And I was trying to escape reality. And I realized that if I continue, you know, doing this, if I continue doing what I’m doing, I’m going to end up dead and I just clicked on me one day. This is too much it was on her birthday. I I stopped doing everything. And you know, I haven’t looked back for 27 months. So it was a decision to start living I guess, you know,

Rob McNealy
Well, congratulations on that. Were you guys together then like married when you were not sober.

Mystical Oaks
Yes, we’ve been married for like 152 years.

Crypto Euclid
We’ve been married for 19 years and together for what? 20 something 24 years. So she’s been through all of it I’ve been so this is my second go at sobriety. And she’s been through the whole thing. So this woman, hats off to her for sticking around with this crazy guy.

Rob McNealy
Well, congratulations, my wife and I are going on well, 18 and a half years, so Wow. High five to that guy’s got kids.

Crypto Euclid
Yes, two.

Rob McNealy
Wonderful, very, very cool.

Mystical Oaks
You?

Rob McNealy
Four. Four too many, I live in Utah, we’re light weights by Utah standards. But we’re not native Utahns so my wife and I are both from Michigan originally, but we’ve been living out west now between Colorado Utah a couple times in Wyoming about 19 years. We literally, we eloped to Utah 19 years ago, 19 half years ago. Wow. So yeah, there’s no It’s sexy place to love to but we did and you told makes it very easy to get married. shocker. But uh, yeah, it’s kind of it’s kind of an interesting place but it’s funny because we’re not like, of the predominant faith so we just fake it really, really well. We blend in with four kids and we homeschool but we’re not. Yeah, but we just look we look normal here.

Mystical Oaks
Yeah, love it.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, we would probably fit in we also homeschool our kids but yeah, we’re not we’re not really religious people but we would probably fit in just fine with is it Mormons usually up there in Utah.

Rob McNealy
There’s a lot of they have a long name now. They don’t do acronyms anymore. But yeah, it’s that’s the long name of the church or that’s the name of the church but they only go by the law. They just rebranded. Told God told him to rebrand and they did.

Crypto Euclid
Time to work on marketing. It seems that sales were down have a

Mystical Oaks
They have a Twitter account.

Crypto Euclid
Yes. That what are they called tipping with You like whatever tithing, tithing, and they were down, so it’s time to do a rebrand.

Rob McNealy
They actually have a lot of marketers involved with the church. One of my friends is a pretty cool guy. And now, my friend, he’s a little weird, but he actually was a consult. He was a marketing consultant for the church for a while. And he is really hardcore. They use some really interesting tactics. But the the church actually owns like movie movie studios and radio and TV stations and newspapers and everything. They’re like, really? volved in the media.

Mystical Oaks
Oh, wow. Okay, well, I think, yeah, I think that’s pretty common. You don’t think about like religious organizations and churches, like being involved in media, but I think there’s a lot of that, that we don’t even really realize.

Rob McNealy
Oh, well, I mean, I think it was like, a few years ago, like the Catholic Church had some investments in like some, you know, firearms companies and stuff. They got a lot of shit for it. Not that I care. But, you know, hey, I thought it was kind of interesting. definitely interesting. You guys are Do you guys ever been out to Utah?

Crypto Euclid
No, I don’t think I we may have driven through we’ve done a lot of like traveling in our days. We drove I don’t think we have cross country a couple times and I don’t you know what I’d have to look at a map I’m really bad with with a geography will come visit so we’ll have to see if the i

Rob McNealy
Do you ski? Come come visit in February.

Crypto Euclid
Now I don’t I’ve never snow skied. I’ve always wanted to, you know, we grew up on the, on the gulf on the water. So we’re like water people. I’ve always wanted to snowboard, but uh, never have Yeah.

Rob McNealy
But uh, so we do a we do a we’re doing our second conference this year, we kind of do hit do a weird conference called off chain where it’s like a mash up of like crypto guns and prepping. On wave and we did our first one last March and we’re doing it again in February and then on that Sunday, we just take a bunch we bought and go skiing.

Crypto Euclid
So you know what that conference pretty much just described all my interests I think yeah,

Mystical Oaks
That sounds really fun.

Rob McNealy
I know a guy if he we actually just opened speaker proposals if you want to come from where you’re more than welcome push on you can talk about something or moderate Is it is it on in Utah?

Crypto Euclid
Okay, that’s all it’s a long drive that we’d have to fly yet you want to fly?

Rob McNealy
It’s so like, because we have for too many children and our most of our families back in Michigan, we generally take the family truckster to from you know, city Detroit every year by driving. So I drive a lot and then like, you want to fly if Tennessee? I’m guessing it’s probably actually a little further I would guess. So. Yeah.

Crypto Euclid
We must have driven through Utah tamarah because it’s on the waves have driven from from California to Florida. So yeah, no, that would be extremely that would that days and days of driving so we would have to fly but yeah, we’ve, we’ve we’ve done it a few of the conferences over on the West Coast with our our youngest one and we’ve done like some Vegas conferences and he flies with us, but unfortunately he has air sickness.

Mystical Oaks
So it’s really fun, pretty bad. You know, it’s somewhat managed, you know, you think that you haven’t under control, then you stop and you get like, mac and cheese or something. And then you’re like, probably wasn’t a good idea to get mac and cheese and the airport.

Rob McNealy
Our nine year old, who is our youngest, and he is definitely the baby of the family and he gets really bad motion sick and he is the biggest drama queen.

Mystical Oaks
The best friends.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, ours is 10. So I think they would get along.

Rob McNealy
It’s pretty interesting. And it’s funny because that wherever you talked about any of the questions actually made questions and stuff for you guys. But you guys sound a lot like ours my wife Christy, actually, we have a weird life. So we my wife.

Mystical Oaks
Weird is good. Where does it go?

Rob McNealy
Yes, we are very a typical so my wife is a trained medical doctor by profession, but she never worked as a physician She works in. She does work in healthcare, but she does receive manages big research projects, but telecommutes to DC. So she works out of the house. And then my day job, I’m a forensic consultant, and I own my own consulting company, which gives me complete flexibility to work on our crypto stuff. And we’re both co founders and our crypto project, going back two years, and then we homeschool our kids. So we’re kind of like literally like, just before this interview started, I’m like, get out of the office. I gotta do my thing now, because we share office. So it’s like, it’s just kind of funny because we’re like, always around each other. And we’re always around our kids. And I brag on my kids, but you know, I’m around them way more than most people around their kids, you know, yeah, but don’t homeschool and don’t work from home. And then it’s kind of funny because I was, you know, I think it’s interesting. You guys are like this duo working together and crypto and my wife and I are like the only husband wife kind of people that I know that are also like a duo working in crypto. And it’s one of the things that why I want to interview you guys because I think it’s unusual. And you probably know that. And so what made you guys like want to work together?

Mystical Oaks
Oh, well, we’ve been working together like since we met basically. Yeah.

Crypto Euclid
We’re both always been entrepreneurs and had you know, done have our own businesses. And we’ve always, you know, you know, work from home. But as far as crypto Do you want to tell the story? You want me to do it? Okay.

Rob McNealy
You tell the story.

Crypto Euclid
Yes. Yes. How about we both tell it at the same time you say one sentence okay. No,what happened was, I got on, I found crypto Twitter. I was on Reddit a lot, you know, like the Bitcoin subreddits and stuff when I started. You know, learning more about Bitcoin and stuff. And then I found crypto Twitter and I fell in love with it. I was like, wow, this place is funny. Everyone’s you know, quick witted and it’s just fun you know, and you can just shit post all day and, and have fun and I kind of like just got addicted to it right away. And I’ve always wanted to. So my friend and I, when we were in high school had a pirate radio station, he had the giant CB antenna, illegal CB antenna, and we would we would do like a radio show. And so I’ve always kind of like dreamt about being like, you know, I don’t know, like a podcast or or like a howard stern I you know, it’s just always sort of been a thing I wanted to do. So I started to do a podcast and I interviewed some really, really funny people on crypto Twitter that I met. And Tamra heard the interview and she was cracking up. And she was like, had things to say as she we were listening to the episode she had funny things to say She’s also very funny. And in fact, she’s where I get all my material only a little that says, tell everyone that but she writes all all my jokes. But yeah, so she, she was like, Whoa, this is this is crazy now she already had a Twitter account for her business and she was already on Twitter but she wasn’t very active. And I was just always on Twitter, you know, always because, you know, I have like an addictive personality, and it’s all or nothing for me. So I really just buried my face into crypto Twitter and really got involved in it. And she heard the show and she had so much fun, you know, listening to it and the next episode, she was on there with me. So we’ve pretty much and then you know, she started interacting with me on Twitter with her Twitter account, and we have a lot of fun and you know, we talked to each other on Twitter even though we’re sitting in the same room or in the same bed

Rob McNealy
I’m I’m guilty of that myself. So yeah, we like why are you doing that? Like, give me a sandwich for like your next to me. No. No, you get the sandwich.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, I want to say this to really quick, my long rant. It’s important that if you do something like as much time as I’m spending on Twitter with these be strangers and stuff. If you’re not involving your wife, then there could be issues because, and I’ve seen this with a lot of my friends on Twitter, where they’re just absorbed into it in the social media stuff, and they’re interacting with these these strangers, but they become like part of your life. And they’re their partners, their wives that aren’t involved don’t understand. They don’t they’re so confused, like, why do you spend so much time with these people? And you know, and I could see how that could cause marital issues. So it’s, you know, I think is good for our marriage that she’s, you know, we’re we’re doing it together because honestly, I think there would be a lot of, you know, just like time where we’re not interacting if we she wasn’t on there with me. So it is like the crypto stuff your your how you make a living yet full time are you guys still doing entrepreneurial kind of things? So I don’t trade I suck at it I’ve only lost Bitcoin doing trading I might long term hold holder. I we you know, we are getting to the point where, you know, we’re having people send us to conferences and things like that and we’ve had you know, we’ve had sponsors for different shows that we’ve produced, we’re certainly not the answer’s no, no, this is the answer. We’re, we have it we’re getting there. We’re building and I’m certainly not this is costing us money. Andyes, so yeah, no, we’re not. We haven’t really, you know, we’re working on it. Obviously, we’re in this space and we’re content creators and, you know, we provide, you know, a service to potential you know, businesses and things but it’s just As it is now it’s we’re sort of just I guess we’re building and we’re still figuring out as we go. But to answer your question, not so much and thank goodness, you know, Tamra is working hard and supplying, you know, the money for this hobby that I your hobby. I love it.

Rob McNealy
No sugar. mamas are important, right? entrepreneurs.

Crypto Euclid
Exactly.

Mystical Oaks
We switch every..

Crypto Euclid
I yeah, there was a time when I was really I was, you know, raking in all the dough. And I had an online business doing really, really well. And we’ve done we’ve done well for ourselves. And, you know, now it’s her turn now I’m no, no, no, I’m gonna sit back.

Mystical Oaks
I’m gonna tag you again.

Crypto Euclid
And I’m gonna play on Twitter all day. And she’s, and eventually Tamra, this will all pay off he think. Okay,

Mystical Oaks
knock on wood, right? Yeah, there you go.

Rob McNealy
My wife’s been very patient with my optimism over the last two years so she can she can relate. Yeah, really? Can. I shouldn’t have her We could have done like a four way kind of thing. Kind of actually next time we should do that, because that would actually be a lot of fun. But yeah, it’s been interesting because we started our little project originally almost two years ago and and we just bootstrap. We didn’t do like an Ico or anything like that. And it’s like, we’ve we’re been the purse strings for the crypt, our little crypto project. So we’re the ones that actually invested money and like, crypto has been something we’ve spent a lot of money on over the last couple years. Like I thought it was supposed to be the other way around. We’re supposed to make money and we’ve been spending money but I’m like, and I’m like, honey, you don’t work out. It’ll work out so great. Yeah, let’s say that a lot.

Crypto Euclid
How are you guys doing? Like right now considering like this, it just, it just seems like it keeps going down?

Mystical Oaks
The price of it, though, because it was just like, it was just three something not that long ago, and now it’s up. I mean,

Crypto Euclid
but every I mean, I’m personally like I feel it too. It’s just such a malaise right now. Everyone’s just like, Oh,

Rob McNealy
you know what I want them always the last one. Honor realized, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, well, not even from an investment standpoint. So I, I don’t know if you know much about what we’re doing with Tusk or anything, but we and I can give you the whole sales pitch at some point of what we’re doing. But long story short, I like the time that it’s quiet now. Do we just launched our own blockchain like we were a token two years ago and we just spent the last year building out our own community blockchain and and all this stuff. So and we literally are going to resume trading here, couple weeks week, something like that on no more this weekend, because everybody’s got a day job. So they are coders actually code on weekends. So to me, I actually liked the idea of launching one it’s dead and quiet and people are bored. No one’s marketing anything because I think it actually is good for our project. And hopefully I’ll make a stand out more. So I’m like, let’s just have it quiet for a couple more months and get some traction, the news cycle slow all the people who wanted to get Quick Left, and they’re bored now when they want to, but I feel really positive about what we’re doing. So I’m I’m not worried about I don’t, you know, I don’t sit there and worry about what the prices are and what things are trading at. That’s not like why I’m here. I’m here for the tech. Well, yeah, but But seriously, we actually we’re actually really focused on solving problems and so and getting customers. So to me, if we do those things really, really well, then the money will come and I’m not worried about it. And so I tell people don’t even worry about it things things are going to pan out because we’re on the right track. Yeah,

Crypto Euclid
I think for me, it’s like it sounds kind of corny and weird, but I think like my thing on Twitter’s I’m sort of like, like a I don’t want to sound egotistical, but I’m kinda like a personality, okay. And, and, and when I, my, my gifts to this community is by really dumb tweets, and they do Way better when everyone’s happy.

And does that make sense? Yeah.

A better crowd right? The crowd is happier. Exactly. So room imagine cryptid Twitter’s a room, and he got a bunch of pissed off people. It’s really hard to tell jokes, right? You don’t I mean,

Rob McNealy
why I my jokes are really not politically correct. So, yeah, I gotta be careful about that. But I went to it’s interesting because we’ve been going to meetups for a couple years in Salt Lake City is kind of a crypto hub, you know, this interesting project. So yeah, there’s some, you know, like overstocks here and Raven coins founded here. And then so there’s, you know, this is just kind of like a hub. And it’s funny because the the meetups are dead. Like they used to be used to some of these meetups used to have 100 people show up and now there’s like 12 on a good day, you know, and I think you know, all the Lambo get rich quick people are pissed off because they they lost right You know, they bought at the top and sold at the bottom whenever else, you know, I think I would be crying too. And and you know, my wife and I started investing first and that’s what got us interested because we’re like really, you know, you know, we’re looking at a lot of pride and like we can belt the project. Like, no seriously, we really got everybody got done laughing and I’m like, No, we could really do this. She’s like, you can’t cut I gotta find coders. And they did. And it’s interesting because when we were trading we were really fortunate on like, some really really stupid shit coins and sold them like at the right time before it all crashed down and you know, it’s like that made it a lot easier I guess for us financially but I mean, you know, we don’t live paycheck to paycheck so it’s not really a big deal. We have normal investments and this is part of our high risk investment stuff anyway, so we just kind of Oh, you did is that but I can see definitely the Malays out there in the real Twitter world not not real Twitter world because they’re It’s not real world world but the real world. In the crypto realm, there’s, it’s just people have lost interest because it’s not exciting right now. But you know, you’re, I’m I’m older than you. And so I remember very clearly the.com bust, and this, to me is exactly like that. And, to me, I’m excited. I’m actually more excited about crypto and especially what we’re working on now than I was even a year and a half ago, because I see the resemblance to what happened during the, you know, 299 to 2001 era. And what came out of 2001 is Facebook, Twitter, Google, and all the major players in online marketing and online commerce and retail and social media all came out of that space. When everybody was bored, miserable, broke, lost, all those companies went out of business. It’s happening again. And to me, if you see it like that, and you’re building a project, you should be excited right now. excited about what we’re doing right now?

Crypto Euclid
I am so well so here’s my thing I’m very like just moody anyway and I have like ups and downs in and you know even when everything’s going great I still can have issues with just whatever it’s being down but

Rob McNealy
the way they like happy is he

Crypto Euclid
I it’s you know, it’s sometimes it’s at a time Yes. But so with us though like I Yeah, we got into bitcoin before you know the before the giant rush up to 20,000 so even you know we haven’t like lost our asses or anything so it would be harder for Yeah, you know if we weren’t still up, you know, like still want to do this, you know what I mean? But I will say this. I do believe in it too. And I just it for me it wasn’t about the you know, oh, this is like the money is like amazing, you know that it keeps going up and up and up. And that has something to do with it. But it was just the you know, the All the stuff behind it, and all the community and how, you know, these people like Andreas antonopoulos out there, you know, preaching the good word of Bitcoin, it just like I became a disciple I just this is my, this is like my religion and I believe in it, and it sounds corny and weird, but I think it’s going to, to, you know, change the world for the better in the long run long term and I think it’s a I believe in it. So I I that’s why I’m still here. You know, and I think that’s in Tamra too. I think she’s seen it like me, you know, you seen the community how it’s just I think it’s, they’re generally the Bitcoin and crypto currency community, the people that really do believe in it and that aren’t here just to make a buck or whatever, are really genuinely good people. I think in most everyone that we’ve met, we’ve met a lot of people have been just really cool and they’re inspiring and they’re intelligent. and creative and funny, and it’s just a group of people that I like to say that I’m a part of.

Rob McNealy
Wow, you know, you just converted me to.

But But I have to agree, I think, you know, I’m optimistic that the world’s going to change. And I’m also pessimistic and nihilistic enough to realize and I think we’re in a race to dystopian future. And if we don’t get ahead of it with the centralized technology, we’re really fucked. So to be, you know, it’s like, you know, look at China, right? Or, you know, I am not like, I’m not riding I hope Iam right now, I believe, technology, you know, is is a weapon or a tool that can be used for good or evil. Right, yeah. And, you know, when, you know, China just decided all of a sudden, right, they’re gonna like, now they’re going to embrace social You know, they’re going to embrace you know, blockchain and, you know, crypto currencies, and then you see the whole crypto world go nuts, right? And I’m like, we’re talking one of the most authoritarian regimes on the planet. If they’re and if they are interested in cryptocurrency and blockchain, it is going to be in a way that they can control and enslave people with it. Not because they’re gonna, they’re, you know, they’re not going to support any technology that in any way takes away their power and control or threatens their power and control. And so if the Chinese all of a sudden decided that they really really really really, really like crypto, I think that’s probably vvvv really, really bad thing for people in China and maybe outside of China. What do you guys think?

Crypto Euclid
Certainly, I think that you know, any, any kind of technology with enough, you know, mind power behind it can be, you know, converted to where, like, they’re using it for their own goods. And I don’t, I’m not enough of a technical nerd to know if Bitcoin is even susceptible to that, but I, I’ve heard I’ve heard things like that being said, I think it’s possible. And yeah, I think some superpower like China with that much money and manpower. Certainly it could be a threat to crypto, you know,

Rob McNealy
yeah, I don’t think China is gonna, you know, rapidly push Bitcoin as a currency that they use in country I don’t think that’s what they’re going to do. I think they’re going to probably create their own state Chinese currency crypto currencies that are easily traceable. And it’s going to be part of that, you know, their typical Orwellian, you know, surveillance state kind of stuff. But, you know, I think crypto world a little weird, you know, you know, they get all excited when government gets involved and some politician says, Hey, we like crypto. But I always say you know, the whole point of crypto at least, you know, the whole cyber phone kind of thing that got me interested in crypto was to get away from the banks and get away from the state and get around. That is to help people, you know, become more free. And yeah, so I think that I think the crypto world is really kind of divided as it’s kind of grown bigger, you know, over especially, I think if you look at what crypto did two years ago is exactly what the internet didn’t like. 99 2000. Right. It blew up went crazy, but it put it on the map for everybody. So every time I go and talk to you know, people that aren’t into crypto, I haven’t found anybody who’s not heard of crypto or have not heard of Bitcoin. Everyone I know, everyone I meet, they’ve all heard of Bitcoin. They don’t necessarily understand it, or they think there’s a negative, you know, negative stigma around it. But they’ve heard of it. And I think that’s kind of where we are now, but I’m really kind of, you know, I, I think if we don’t really get back to embracing our actual decentralized routes, and I see that there, I believe there are threats coming into the space, the technology is going to stay. I don’t think crypto is going anywhere. The question is who’s controlling it and which are the dominant kryptos that are going to be used out there. I don’t have the answer to that yet.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, I don’t think anyone does. You know, maybe that whole thing with Libra and the Facebook coin and all that stuff. You know, maybe that’s why everyone’s so worried about Libra. And you know, because here’s the thing with Facebook Who the fuck is still using Facebook the old like our parents, that’s who uses Facebook and guess what they are the most inept, like they don’t understand technology. Like for some reason our parents you know, we’re early 40s don’t know how to use technology very well. But for some reason, like our grandparents are geniuses on the computer I wouldn’t say genius or at least they understand their their phone. But our parents are like I don’t do

Mystical Oaks
it for me Mrs. To they understand their

Crypto Euclid
day. Can you print this web page out for me? That’s what like our parents say but in there, the ones that are using Facebook you know and i wonder like is that the one that’s what’s more that’s what’s scarier to me

Rob McNealy
is soon as you’re not gonna say okay boom or now are you

Crypto Euclid
know, you know it’s funny is that thing that Boomer thing is so funny because that was like a little meme that I thought kind of started on crypto Twitter and then it just is mounts like mainstream mainstream. Boomer, there was a guy on crypto Twitter reptar who started calling everyone he tweeted out everyone that’s over 30 is a boomer and it like everyone like lost their shit. It’s hilarious and this was like months ago. So it’s like is he responsible for this nationwide mean over

Mystical Oaks
it was like a year it

Crypto Euclid
was like a year ago he tweeted that out and I was like, Oh, this guy’s hilarious. But

yeah, so Anyway, I digress. Yeah,

Mystical Oaks
we went

Rob McNealy
as an XOR I just say screw everybody but you know, you know where the where the generation everybody forgot about and and I’m okay with that. You know, you guys just start you with Well, actually, technically 43 I think you’re technically an extra two. Yeah.

Mystical Oaks
Yeah, but I don’t even care. It’s like, you know, listen,

Crypto Euclid
that age thing is Yeah, so listen, sometimes I get though, but serious seriously guys, he say camera says she doesn’t care. You say dumb. Honestly, guys, Can you believe that? We’re this age? I don’t I can’t believe it. I can’t fucking believe that I am like 43 years old. I can’t fucking believe I don’t remember my 30s at all. I don’t remember my third I

Rob McNealy
kind of wish I didn’t.

Crypto Euclid
So what happened? Like, like, how did this happened? How did we get to this age old time?

Rob McNealy
47. So I tell my kids like are mortified. I’m like I was born during Vietnam. Right? And they look at you like what? And then I’m like, you know, I graduate from high school in 90, right? So I literally went through high school Navy’s literally my first freshman year was like, 86 or something. And it’s like, Don’t feel old. Like I look old. My Everything hurts other than that it hurts. But mentally, like, I’m still like, 20. Like, I still, like want to do the same things. I’m still hungry in business. I’m still excited about trying new things. I’ve always been like an early adopter of stuff. So I always like to try new things. I still want to travel again, you know, and so I don’t my parents were, like, always old. I don’t know how your parents were. I grew up. I grew up in the Midwest and like, and my parents were always old. Like, my mom had blue hit. My mom had old lady blue hair from the time I was like,

Mystical Oaks
thank you. This is like, I have pictures of my grandparents in their 40s and they they look like they did like now you know, I mean?

Rob McNealy
The same. Same old lady perm, you know, and I’m and I’m always and even when I was a kid. I think that’s what made these one of the things that made me so angry when I was younger. is like I’m like, I was thinking okay, Boomer before that was A thing like when I was a kid, I was like, okay, Boomer, that’s how I was with my parents, because they didn’t make any sense to me at all. You know, like, Why are you being old? It’s like, they really were. I think you can have an old mentality mentally or a young mentality and I still feel like I’m a kid. And just an old guys body, which kind of sucks but it is what it is. But I can say hey, I you know, a joke around I’m like, get off my pager kid. Because you know, I grew up in Rangers. I didn’t even I had my first cell phone I had when I was 28. But I grew up in the pager generation like we literally would be like, you know, doing the little pager codes. You guys have pagers when you were

Crypto Euclid
Dial 911 minute emergency 6969 that call me back like right away or something? There’s all these codes

Mystical Oaks
All I knew it was nine one line. Yeah,

Rob McNealy
So we always had like ID codes. Mine was 777 So you knew was me you’d be like 777911 phone number. You know if you type all that out and people like us Like we had heard someone said they made fun of me the other day I’m like you didn’t know the codes. You didn’t know codes you have to know codes if you’re using pagers. You know, it’s just kind of funny, but I’m old enough to remember CBS two, and I actually had 100 I had an illegal hundred amp linear amplifier on my CB, back in the 80s when that was still kind of a thing and a big weapon Tana so I’m old enough to remember that. So get off my pager.

Mystical Oaks
We had road trips, and we found that either we so I bought a car in Atlanta. When we first started dating and he installed like a CB in our cars that way we could keep

Our car and the CD my but we would play CB tag. Did you ever do that?

Rob McNealy
I think so. We Well, there was all sorts of weird games. But if you look at it, CBS were like crypto Twitter of like the 70s.

Crypto Euclid
How channels were like, shared so you could go Oh, yeah, if you end up obviously you don’t get on the trucker chain. But you grandfathered it. Yeah, you get on the trucker channel if you’re driving and you want to know if there’s Smokies up the road

Rob McNealy
well, everybody’s so everybody think about it. Think of the corollary. It’s just analog social media. So you got like, sudah you know, everybody’s got a pseudonym, you know, yeah, everybody’s, it’s a shared channel. Everybody’s Noxus to each other and are jerks and, and there’s trolls, and, you know, just retarded people. So if you think about it, like, see bees were are really that still are in some ways, but back in the day when non truckers really were instill in the CD culture. CBX culture is just social media culture, right? Is the same bad behavior. I know

Crypto Euclid
it is. You made it, he called it something that makes sense is shared channel and that’s what Twitter is. It’s just a shared channel on the same, you know, channel, you know, blurting out our nonsense and fighting with each other and, and you know, whatever, calling each other out and praising each other and what Ever. Yeah, right. Real quick. I had a thought before I lose it because it is it annoying that the way that you met

Mystical Oaks
Hmm, did you say, isn’t it? Yeah,

Crypto Euclid
thank you Isn’t he said in it? I thought,

Mystical Oaks
I know.

Crypto Euclid
Isn’t it annoying that the human body and the brain works so that when we’re young whippersnappers and we have like our strength, you know, like our, you know, we’re in our young, young 20s Our brains are like, mush. Then when we get older, and our brains have evolved, and we’re more wiser and we learn things, then our bodies start to fail. How, how ironic is that and you said that, you know, you don’t feel old, like your brain, you know, is still thinking young, but unfortunately, our bodies are just decaying. You

Mystical Oaks
know, okay,

Crypto Euclid
yes, it looks at it lately how you know?

It’s like it’s just devolving into this like blob of mess.

Rob McNealy
I’m not a religious person but if there is a God he’s an asshole for doing that.

Crypto Euclid
Exactly. And I know like what’s with the you know, the diseases and stuff like why why are we so flawed and why is there like mental health issues? Like why is our brains you know, trick us into thinking everything sucks like why is that you know and I guess

Mystical Oaks
everyone to be Stepford Wives I

Crypto Euclid
want I want our bodies to stay good mostly the time and not do the case so quickly and I want our brains to just work better. That’s what I want. That’s all you want.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, well, well think about like this right? It’s like and I believe there’s you know, the small Allah crazy people that have anxiety and are nuts and are depressed are all smart, smart people tend to be more nuts or and then they do dumb stuff because they’re being nuts because they’re smart. And the other choices you can just be dumb and make bad decisions because you’re dumb. We’re just kind of fucked. It’s not a not a great situation.

Crypto Euclid
Don’t you wish this sometimes you were just pleasantly Like, now you didn’t know how horrible it is really the whole how you know that

Mystical Oaks
if you actually are pleasantly dumb? Well, that’s possible.

Crypto Euclid
I don’t, but you know what I mean? Like, you know, knowing how like, like wackadoodle The world is sometimes as a curse and being like having like intelligence to understand, like, you know, there’s really no old white man in the sky that’s going to be there for us when we’re dead. You know, that whole thing and like, understanding that, you know, I don’t know what your beliefs are, but like, to me, it’s just like a scary thought. It’s just like, we have no, no idea why we’re here. We’re just these like bugs on this blue orb. And sometimes I wish I didn’t believe that sometimes I wish that I believed you know, it’s all going to be fine. You know, and every there’s a reason and there’s a purpose. And sometimes I think it’s good to, you know, you you would you want to just be

Mystical Oaks
I spend time worrying about what that is that you will never know of, and just live in the now moment because living

Rob McNealy
Yoga right? Tamar does yoga, right?

Mystical Oaks
A little sometimes?

Crypto Euclid
spiritual? She’s very spiritual. I’m more of a like, why am I here? This doesn’t make sense

Mystical Oaks
to say whiny, I’m afraid

Crypto Euclid
on air.

What’s the reason for my existence? I dread the existential dread. She’s more of a like, calm, grounded, like you’re here because you’re supposed to be, and you know, that kind of thing. And that’s why, you know, I’ve struggled with substance abuse because the brain is flawed because of her. No, you’re the reason I’ve gotten better multiple times. It’s the it’s my own brain left to my own devices. You know, I just don’t do well.

Rob McNealy
I don’t have a good answer to that. It’s kind of one of those mysteries and I think it comes back to breathe in and breathe out. And then or I can be really nihilistic say, we’re just here to suffer that. That is the reason we’re here to self right? Well, that’s a good goodness

Crypto Euclid
is hell. Listen, that’s a good positive spin like The horror, like the suffering that you’re experiencing is supposed to be so just go with it,

Rob McNealy
and deal with it. And and, and I agree with that. And yeah, it’s tough. I mean, I think, you know, I know a lot of smart people and it’s interesting, like all I pretty much every smart person I know struggles with anxiety or depression across the board. And I think that’s tough because I think, you know, and I think it’s really you know, we’re evolved from this like lizard brain kind of thing, right? So, you know, smarter people if you think about it higher IQ people what, there’s all sorts of, you know, thoughts on it, but you know, if you think about it, the the smart people why why do you have anxiety? Why do you worry about the future? Right? Well, maybe that comes from the fact that maybe your ancestors came from a cold environment or that they faced starvation and if they didn’t think and worry about the future, then sit on the grass and starve to death a reason to death. So are we evolved to say, you know, we need to think about putting Nuts away for the winner like a squirrel. And I think that’s part of it I really do believe that’s part of it is that we we had to evolve to learn to think ahead and plan and I think that ultimately anxiety is some kind of vestige of that you know, biologically now I have no idea if I’m right or wrong it’s just my own opinion on it, but it seems like it makes sense to me. I you’ve not been I’ve been the first person who said that

Mystical Oaks
or it could be like if you believe in past lives or something, maybe that past life

Crypto Euclid
see the scientific brain will immediately says no. I think there is something to like what you said and and what a luxury we have now where we’re like, oh, just live in the moment because everything’s fine. You know what I mean? We didn’t have your God. You know, we didn’t have we didn’t have that luxury. So the just

Mystical Oaks
just the just live in the mo is just it just calm you’re when you’re in those like Ras like Worried anxious things a way to deal with it is just to calm down and just, you know, be in the moment that you’re in Try not to worry about all the because you’re not gathering nuts for, you know, you’re not having to do that. So why Why are you putting yourself through that? And everyone around you know, I know just down, enjoy have fun.

Crypto Euclid
I’m not arguing good. That shouldn’t happen. I totally You are correct. We shouldn’t be, you know, worrying about shit. That’s not happened yet, but it’s, it’s hard to not, I guess because our brains are wired for that.

Rob McNealy
I think Tamar and I are both right. I think we’re nuts because of the way we’ve been programmed. But the solution to that is breathe in breathe out and do yoga.

Crypto Euclid
I agree with that. It’s certainly not you know,

lose your fucking mind and go batshit crazy. It’s like just brief.

Mystical Oaks
Little more sensible.

Rob McNealy
Yeah. You know, and I think there’s something to that and I really do. It’s funny because I listened to like all this like, really piano music. Now when I’m working, I found that even like, you know, I’m more of a suicidal tendency punk rock speed metal kind of guy growing up, and it’s like now I will be in my office and I’m like, nice acoustic piano soft music like the vanilla candle because I’m trying to, you know, be

Mystical Oaks
relaxed. George Winston, when you say piano that if you haven’t heard him then listen to him. Really good.

Rob McNealy
I, I really got into Lynn Trudeau

recently, and she’s like, not a big thing yet, but she’s amazing. So it’s on Spotify, Lynn Trudeau. And, but I’ll check out the Wednesday night too good. Because breathe and breathe out. It’s a good thing. We don’t we shouldn’t lose our minds were more and the thing is, here’s the thing, regardless of why people are stressed out and everybody seems to be stressed out, you know, if we’re not stressed out, we’re more likely to be nice to each other. So why don’t we just Do it for that reason alone.

Mystical Oaks
Exactly like when you’re high tension, high stress, then you’re, you’re short fused. So yeah.

Rob McNealy
There you go free then breathe out. breathing.

So you guys have had a lot of interesting people on your show you’ve had, you know, the cardano guy, Charles Hoskins and him had and Dre as at novelists. And so, of all the guests that you’ve actually had on your show, who would you say would have been your favorite one so far? Not big ones, but the ones you actually really really liked the interview? Oh my gosh, that’s a tough question.

Crypto Euclid
Well, okay. So we’ve actually on another show, we’ve done we’ve we’ve actually we’ve interviewed like Roger, fair, we’ve interviewed john and Janice McAfee, McAfee and, and then so out of and then you include antonopoulos and Hoskinson. Is that not the big names just out of everybody. Oh, and now Everyone, you know, honestly like so I don’t I don’t really like to do like the interview thing so much like I had coming to that conclusion. Like I that’s how I started was doing these long form, you know, interviews we have a guest and on the show we’re doing now that Bitcoin show I like the episodes where it’s just Tamra and I just cutting up and I realized that that’s kind of what I want to do But to answer your question that’s going to be too difficult. Why you think of it all answer? I mean,

Mystical Oaks
I, that was that was a good conversation. It wasn’t so much of an interview as much as like we I felt like we were just we were just in all like, sitting there listening to him tell stories. So so but that was good. That was a great experience I loved I love the conversation, and I loved how that went and antonopoulos was amazing. So those are my two favorite and I know they’re big, and then I’m going to go to small ones just because we love antonopoulos. So so it’s Fighting, just having, you know, just having his time getting to have a one on one conversation with him. So that’s mine. But then some of the ones that we’ve done in the past were my favorite. I can think of a couple like we were on an on a show around the corner. So I guess we did an interview with eight ball that was one of my favorite and then more recently, but still, like a year ago, I think what am i top favorites is when we have just multiple people on we had crypto breakfast on and we had PP like Pied Piper coin, which I don’t even know their apps anymore. I don’t even know brekkie switched is but we’ve had that we’ve had some just really way off the wall conversations with them. And that was fun.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, the philosophical stuff when we really get into it. I mean, obviously I’m a huge antonopoulos fan and I really dig what he’s doing. So that would probably be my favorite one, but yeah, I’ve I like the ones where we really got into, you know, the philosophical stuff with something just our friends on crypto Twitter, you know, and, and then some of the group things we’ve done in the past are really, really fun. So

Rob McNealy
So you mentioned that you like working together and cutting up stuff. So, you know, one of the things that you do that spend kind of funny you do a lot of this weird, wacky kind of skits and creative stuff and weird CGI stuff, you know, what kind of got you to even experiment and go that direction.

Crypto Euclid
So it’s a funny story. I’ve always like wanted to play I’m kind of a, you know, a little bit of a nerd when it comes to like, you know, just producing stuff. And I like, you know, playing with the gadgets and things and I wanted to do when we first started our podcast, it was just a podcast and no camera or anything. And then once I like Like, you know what I’m going to you know Doc’s, my parents. And I started to do you know, like, the videos of my of myself with my phone or whatever. I was like, you know, it would be fun to do like a show where there’s a camera and a desk. And but the problem was like, upstairs or something. There’s like the wall. We didn’t want it like the wall was ugly or something or you didn’t like the way it looked or something. I don’t know. So we were going to I was like, Well, I can hang a sheet up. Right? There’s like too much stuff clutter in the background. Okay, you didn’t want me to put a camera because there was like clutter and stuff on the wall.

Mystical Oaks
It wasn’t clutter. It was we have because we live in an older house. Yeah. And we have with panel. So that’s,

Crypto Euclid
like, you’re so embarrassed to

Mystical Oaks
know what is hideous. Okay, so you don’t like the way it looks.

Crypto Euclid
I didn’t like the way the wood paneling looks like. So you didn’t want me to do and I’m like fine. I’ll hang a sheet up

Mystical Oaks
right now. look so much better a sheet.

Crypto Euclid
So then I’m like, wait a minute, why not just do a green screen and start messing around with greens? Yeah, do it right. So I hung up a green screen, I bought a green screen from Amazon and I hung up a green screen. And I started messing around with OBS and learning how to you know, use chroma key and all that stuff. And I started just the first thing that I you know, did was just start making like, dumps you know, funny stuff. And yeah, so that’s how it happened. It didn’t happen because I was like, I want to make green screen spaces.

Rob McNealy
Tamra was embarrassed of your architecture,

Crypto Euclid
like I mean,

Mystical Oaks
I always make things better you see how I even without trying to I feel like he could have left out that whole middle part of the story and just said, you know that he got a green screen and put it up. But I think the more it goes back to our our sense of like what we think is funny and like we’ve always been into kind of the sketch comedy

Crypto Euclid
where we grew up on Saturday Night Live and kids in the hall and yeah, the state and yes, all That Monty Python. So that’s definitely our sense of humor, and I love that stuff.

Mystical Oaks
So even when we’re out, we just we are making up silly things. We’re like, wouldn’t it be funny? If you know, until we have this whole scenario, and then it’s fun to actually do it, you know? So the things we can do is great. Now, if we had some kind of major budget, we could do so much more.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, it’ll happen. This whole thing, honestly, is just a, like my body of work. And I’m waiting for someone to discover me. That’s what this is. This is my thing. I’m like, I’m putting it out there and doing the show. I’m like, hey, look at me. behind the desk. I got my wife here. And it’s funny stuff happening and I’m imagining that some studio head sees this and it’s like, oh my god, get get him on the phone. Right. Right now, we need this guy, get them on because in my mind, I am going to have like a show like, like, like, like stern or or Dave Letterman Yeah. Eric Andre that’s what’s going to happen with Eric Andre. He’s hilarious. He’s like newer, I guess like past like 10 years or so he kind of blew up he has like a really crazy like, it’s like on Comedy Central like late at night jet cribe that minutes he’s like he’s like, he’s just crazy like he goes out on the street and does just like ridiculous stuff. But he has like a look him up Eric Andre show. It’s funny. I don’t know if you like that stuff kind of humor. But it’s it’s it’s really funny. Tim and Eric too. I love Tim and Eric.

Rob McNealy
So why did you guys move up to Tennessee?

Crypto Euclid
Well, without getting too much into it, basically the Hurricanes were like now and I don’t even want to get into like oh because Florida makes you

Mystical Oaks
crazy about the wood paneling, but he doesn’t want to mention that the actual truth is like Florida literally. I don’t know if it’s the heat or what because you know, he already has issues.

The anxiety and stuff we talked to

Crypto Euclid
the Florida that makes me crazy.

Rob McNealy
From from what I see on the internet it makes everybody crazy

Crypto Euclid
it does I don’t know if it’s the heat or what but it’s very odd but I can’t stay in Florida for more than a few years I lose it Yeah, I just can’t get there and that we have lived there since the fourth grade so

Rob McNealy
yeah Tennessee but you know if I if I’m throwing a dart against the wall I have my own weird stories about why like where Why would you move to Salt Lake City of all places? But why would you pick

Crypto Euclid
Tennessee literally a dart right? Like a dart we are

Mystical Oaks
no okay, so well see this always happens but yeah, for some reason you know when you’re at the ocean, I guess you just think of well if I’m leaving the ocean, I’m going to the mountains extreme you know so the first time we left Florida I was like we’re either going to North Carolina or New Zealand. You know there’s and I don’t even know why I was just like those that’s I guess I was looking at property we vacation in North Carolina. So in the Smoky Mountains, so it’s like Smoky Mountains are we’re going crazy and going completely out of the country. So We went to North Carolina and we also went to New Zealand and then we went back to Florida so here we are back in Florida and we were looking at places and I’m like nope live there. No been there. No. And then we came across Knoxville and I’m like You know what, I don’t even think we’ve even driven through Knoxville so

Crypto Euclid
and it just has like a lot of

Rob McNealy
just we’ve never driven there let’s just do it we’re

Mystical Oaks
just we know we wouldn’t look at property and we kind of we found a house we loved and and then you keep loved the city so you know

Crypto Euclid
I like the big the beep beep and the noises in the cars and pretty light it’s like a small of the city. Now I like this I just love I love Knoxville and this the Gulf a little bit I miss like I like water sports and stuff. But I really really love Knoxville. So how

Rob McNealy
long you been there now? Three years,

three years. So you’re fairly new transplant? Yeah, yeah. So were you doing anything crypto related before Moved Where did that start afterward?

Crypto Euclid
I like most people was trying to purchase some things on the internet that could only be bought with crypto back in the day you know back a while ago so that was my only dealings with crypto you know back then. And once we got here is when I was like whoa this stuff is really you know, it’s starting to really go up it’s weird it’s a little bit of Bitcoin I had left in this circle wallet is now worth like, a lot more than you know, I paid for it and Whoa, and that’s when I found like Reddit and and started really getting into learning about it. And yeah, here we are.

Rob McNealy
So I know you guys you know, organize local events and things and go to meetups. What do you think the responses down south Do you think people in Knoxville are open to it? I mean, you guys travel a lot. So I mean, you probably talked to crypto people from all over the place. Do you think that people in the south are any more or less open to crypto then say someone in the middle Midwest or maybe in an urban area.

Crypto Euclid
So we haven’t really we don’t really organize meetups and things here. I’ve done some my runs that I do. I’ve done a couple of those and the conferences that we’ve been to the one in Toronto and the one in New York, but we have a weird meetup did a weird meetup here in Knoxville, we met a bunch of our crypto Twitter friends. This was a year over a year ago. We rented a year in August Yeah, so we rented a big like huge house in Gatlinburg, Gatlinburg, Tennessee, and we got all of our crypto friends, you know, that we knew on on Twitter, haven’t met any of them in real life. And we all just rented this big house and we stayed there for the weekend for the weekend. And like go big or go Yeah, you know, it was Yeah, it was fun. We did

Mystical Oaks
that. But yeah, it was a great time we bonded with all of them and

Crypto Euclid
but as far as like reaching out here locally like in Knoxville, I at one point I was looking kind of like at the local like Knoxville subreddit. I don’t really know of Too many, you know, crypto stuff happening here like just right here. We also visit our friends over in Nashville. Or is it Memphis or Nashville Nashville, and we hung out with some of them there. But it’s not really like a meetups. It’s just like, you know, friends that we’ve we’ve known on crypto and met on crypto Twitter and we just like kind of get together and hang out.

Mystical Oaks
Yeah. unofficial meetup.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah. It’s not like we’re like, okay, you know, let’s talk about Bitcoin. You know, it’s, we end up doing it anyway, because we’re all crypto nerds. But, you know, I mean, I just like people I like to hang out with my friends.

Rob McNealy
Well, that’s a good thing. We’re getting close on time. And, you know, I really do appreciate this is it actually went a completely different direction than the whole list of questions I printed out. So I’m actually actually it’s more fun this way. I like just kind of talking to people and you guys are pretty real. So I mean, that’s really kind of cool. Where can people find out more about what you guys are doing?

Crypto Euclid
You know, right now, the best way To you just follow us on Twitter, you know, I’m @CryptoEuclid on Twitter, and she’s @MysticalOaks. And we have a show. It’s called That Bitcoin show. We I uploaded as a podcast and I also put it on YouTube. So we’re building our YouTube channel, but I guess the best way to find in all the latest episodes and stuff is just ThatBitcoinShow.com.

Mystical Oaks
I do want to say that I’m looking at your list of questions which, which like after speaking to us, which is the craziest one you have on there to ask us like the far like far fetched that you would ask us now like you’re looking at it and you’re like, there’s no way I’d ask them this question.

Rob McNealy
Oh, I don’t think there’s any of my wouldn’t ask you. Okay, which is your favorite then? I was going to ask you who was going to be your most eccentric guest, but you already threw McAfee out there. So I just assumed that would be that would have been him?

Mystical Oaks
Um, no. Richard Hart.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah. Richard Hart was interesting.

Mystical Oaks
Yeah. Most eccentric?

Rob McNealy
Yes. Cool. You know, we should do this again. I’ve had a good time. I’m talking to you guys. Maybe we should live maybe get my wife. I’m like cameras and we’ll just kind of sit there and shoot. I think it’d be a fun, guys, thank you so much for coming on today really do appreciate it.

Crypto Euclid
Yeah, definitely. This was a lot of fun.

Mystical Oaks
Tell your wife hi.

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Timothy Robinson, Bits and Tokens Video

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Joe Mcgill – CyChain on Crypto Risks

Joe McGill, Founder of CyChain, discusses crypto and blockchain threat intelligence, investigations and recovery, and operational security.

Joe McGill CyChain Video Interview

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