Pascal Hügli – Ignore At Your Own Risk
Pascal Hügli, author of Ignore At Your Own Risk, talks with Rob McNealy about Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency monetary revolution.
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David Z. Morris – Bitcoin is Magic Transcript
Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.
Rob McNealy
Today, we’re talking to David Z. Morris. He is an amazing author and writer. I could go into his entire bio, but I think it’s better from him because he’s just done way too many cool things. But he has been on the show before and I’m glad to see him again. David, how the heck are you?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
I’m good. So you want me to run down? What’s been happening?
Rob McNealy
Well, for the people who don’t know who you are, which I know, there are that many people but give a little bit background. Who are you?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Shocked? I think we talked about 6,5, 6 months ago on the show before and at the time, I was working for a magazine codebreaker. We were covering cryptocurrency exclusively and unfortunately breakers ended. And I’m now a staff writer for Fortune magazine covering and I run the cryptocurrency newsletter there, which is called the ledger and everybody should go to fortune comm slash newsletter and sign up for those. And I also have a new book out called bitcoins magic that is mainly about the way people communicate about cryptocurrency. And the role of an actually we were before we started recording you were talking about your efforts to market and promote your own project. And a lot of the book is about how something like Bitcoin or Tusk relies a lot on a community to create it collectively. And the way people communicate about it, to communicate about it to kind of give it the reality and value that it has. So it’s, that’s kind of the main theme of the book.
Rob McNealy
Well tell us a little more. So What was the genesis of this idea for the book?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
I got a severance package from break. Nice. I decided that I should use it to do a big project to try and kind of like, sum up. A lot of the bigger and more weird ideas I had about crypto over, you know, it’s been like five years of writing about it now. So and there is this this another topic that might be of interest to you and your listeners. There’s a big section in there about some of the crummy crypto media that the space has had to deal with over the last few years from like pay to play scandals to conflict of interest and a big section on actually this is something that we can talk about, and we can pick back up in a bit but um, I have a pretty substantial bit in the book about Forbes and how some of its policies have been really bad for scams and misleading projects in space. And the guy who used to run Forbes, or at least forbes.com is in the news recently because he took over a site called deadspin and the entire staff left because he was so bad. So that’s a media and communications stuff. And, but the impetus for the book, aside from just wanting to kind of get, I mean, it was just a pleasure to write, you know, I had time I just did it. But, you know, there’s some, some ideas and some parts of it that don’t fit neatly into an article. So that’s why you write a book. And so there’s there’s a lot of stuff in there about everything from like, you know, Anton laveyan, Satanism and ancient magicians and how they used code and how they related to the world, and how A lot of what people back in the day thought of as magic was all about belief. And money is also about belief. That’s kind of another one of the big ideas in the book is that whether something is considered money basically depends on how many people believe that it’s money. And that’s kind of the subtext of the title is that we’re all kind of engaged in this collective magical thinking about money. And there’s a lot of different things that support that. And we’re all by whether you’re buying Bitcoin or buying Tusk or buying ether or whatever your particular ecosystem happens to be that you’re choosing to part if you’re still, you know, exclusively focused on dollars. You’re part of this collective project that is a little bit like, you know, people coming together to cast an incantation, metaphorically speaking to To make this thing real, that’s actually nothing but a piece of paper or digits or things like that. So
Rob McNealy
Well, I think at the heart of it is, you know, all value is subjective. But I think, you know, and that’s pretty, you know, that’s pretty common, like Austrian economics, right? All value is subjective, you know, and I think it really is that way. But I think, where a lot of value comes from is utility, and what utility you’re bringing in so I agree with you. So, in your case, you
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
have to have both. Yeah. I mean, you have to have a functional technology that works as a currency or medium of exchange where you know, and like Bitcoin can’t be hacked or anything like that. This is my cat, by the way. Nice, literally put it right in my face. Um, so yeah, you have to have you have to have the actual utility, you have to have the actual technology. But then in addition to that, you have to have a community and and they’ll have to kind of be on the same page and regard themselves as part of this larger thing in order for for the money to have value.
Rob McNealy
So how so in your book? How did you express or how did you see his crypto is different than, say, other products out there that are being marketed and sold to a community?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Well, what kind of other products like other payments, technology?
Rob McNealy
What’s different about crypto and how its communicated versus a Visa or MasterCard or something like that?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Yeah, I mean, I do think it relies a lot more on this sense of mission. And it’s sort of the double edged sword of, you know, it sort of seems like it has I mean, it has tamped down because the Ico craze is over, but in crypto, you’re very focused on like the the relative price of the coin that you’re using, because it’s kind of a metric for how you’re competing with other currencies or existing The currencies. And in some cases that can be very shallow, like that can be a distraction. If you’re only paying attention to price, and you’re just like trading and not thinking about the bigger picture of how does this work in your case, you know, you’re reaching out and specifically trying to teach people how to use something. And so that price can be a distraction, but it is also it instills this sense of mission. And this idea that we’re going to go out and evangelize. And we believe in it because of x, y, and z, and we’re going to teach other people. And so you’re, and that’s all, you know, Visa, there’s just a company, but with crypto. Ideally, you have, you know, in the most successful projects, you have pretty decentralized communities. I mean, Bitcoin, obviously, that’s true. I think it’s increasingly true in a theorem you kind of still have a few very influential people, but there’s a lot of stuff going on elsewhere. And so I find that to be pretty optimistic signal. And and I actually got to give some credit to god i’m going to Balaji Srinivasan who was formerly the CEO of earned calm, which was bought by Coinbase and became their education platform. And Balaji is like one of the smartest people you ever hear talk he was on what Bitcoin did and they had a great talk about the idea that crypto can become this kind of virtual nation state, because people share values and kind of buy into something based on not just the payments aspect of it, but other things. I mean, if your aim is the best case, I mean, Bitcoin is doing both have this going on. There are cultures around them. It’s not just this is a technology, it’s there’s a certain ethos, there’s a certain philosophy and so that aligns the interest of all the people Who decided to join these projects or support the projects or even just by buying into them in terms of not just technology, but but values and community. And it’s very interesting. I think that
a Ethereum is a great example where I think they’ll all admit that, like all the even the people at the top admit that either as it exists now or a theory as it exists now, it doesn’t quite work the way it’s supposed to. So the technology is not quite there, and they’re still trying to figure out how to get the technology there. But in the meantime, they have this incredibly strong community that is helping carry them forward. And, you know, nobody seems acutely angsty about the fact that their technology doesn’t work all that well. It’s a it’s a collective project that they’re working on. And so that that idea of, we’re going to come together as a collective that isn’t organized around a company, like visa or you know, Any other, it’s not a bank, which is owned by a couple of people. It’s definitely a collective. And, you know, I think that’s something new in money. And I think that is kind of an under appreciated aspect of all of this. That is really interesting. And it’ll be fascinating to see see where things go from there.
Rob McNealy
So, as as things go forward, do you think that this community based this community driven thing? Do you think it’s going to Peter out, or do you think that you know, these community based products really have a good shot at becoming really, really mainstream?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
I don’t know about mainstream, but I don’t think you have to become mainstream. I mean, I mean, Bitcoin and ether, but um, there are other interesting projects like decred. I, I’m sure I could come up with a few more if I thought about it for a while we’re, you know, they’re not gigantic and they’re not really known outside of very select circles, but they’re, you know, they’re doing active outreach, and they have particular principles that they work on. And those people, you know, they come together, you don’t have to have. I mean, that’s the thing about community, right? You don’t have to have everybody, you just have to have the people that you have. And they’re going to kind of incrementally grow, I think, and, and that, you know, if you’re looking at it from an investment perspective, that growth of the community is is key to the growth of the value and adoption of, of a project. And so the social dynamics are kind of kind of key to making all of these things successful. And that’s, that’s, again, like kind of the big underlying theme of the book.
Rob McNealy
If you had to look at your magic eight ball. Do you see the crypto space getting more diverse with disparate projects, that kind of operate or do you just see, the more likely outcome is just going to centralize into a few major projects?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
I mean, I think that that is one question where technology really comes into it because there are a few people like at cosmos and polka polka dot, they’re working on interoperability standards that will allow things to move across blockchains you already have stuff like, racked Bitcoin on the Ethereum network. And there are other kinds of interoperability that already exists kind of on a small scale on a case by case basis. And so when you get to a point where there’s more Actually, I mean, there is actually interoperability technology that is being developed or that is already out there. And I don’t, I haven’t really thought hard about what the implications of that are, but but definitely one of them is that, um, different things can coexist and interact. And there will be dynamics around that interaction that I think are pretty dateable but i think that i think we’re definitely going to be I mean, obviously, we’re going to be a multi blockchain world because there are specialty block chains that are built for particular purposes. The question of whether we’re going to be in a multi cryptocurrency world? I think it’s a Yeah, I mean, I think that you can be a Bitcoin maximalist in some sense by thinking that, you know, this is kind of the most sound thing and you can build stuff on top of it. But I don’t think there’s that many people who can plausibly argue now, that and this is, you know, this is the most common single crypto argument that Bitcoin will eat everything, right? I mean, technologically, it’s not going to happen. Because there’s no way you’re going to get the consensus to be right, the Bitcoin code to a degree that will allow it to be liquid enough for you know, coffee or whatever. And so you’re going to have whether it’s lightning built on top of Bitcoin or different chains that can do faster stuff and then settled to Bitcoin or, you know, just things that live in two different ecosystems at once. I think there’s going to be a lot of interesting interactions. But yeah, there’s going to be a lot of different or I guess the question isn’t whether there’s going to be one crypto or many of the questions whether there’s going to be a dozen kryptos or 100. And I think if just at this exact moment, I think if you ask me two days from now, I might give a different answer but I mean, I tend to be in the school of thought that there’s going to be 100 but you know, the hundred that are big right now are not going to be the hundred that are big 10 years from now, because things are going to turn and there’s going to be new technology. But I think I believe in a multi crypto multi Watching future.
Rob McNealy
So what is your take on smart contracts platforms? Like there’s there’s multiple projects out there that are trying to do that, you know, we got Ethan iOS and Jesus and, you know, bunch of other ones I’m not even super familiar with. Do you think that? This is the question I have? Do you think there’s actually a market for smart contracts platforms that are like public Ledger’s versus, you know, or do you think that like, enterprises will just build their own for a specific application? What do you think’s more likely happen? Because, you know, I keep coming back to as an entrepreneur, you know, things like market size, number of customers, and how do you get your customers? And I’m a simple guy, right? I mean, customers are people that are willing to pay to use your system. Yeah, right. It’s not just someone who’s investing I don’t believe an investor is a user. Now a lot of people are make that that argument, but I don’t believe that an investor is a user, you know, so to me, you know, that’s why I don’t like like you were talking about market cap being like, you know, a metric I also think that it’s a bad metric. And I also think wallet holders is a patent metric is one of a number of wallets. But you know, I’m always curious about what you’re seeing out there, because you’re getting you get around probably a lot more than I do in this space. You know, is there an actual real good use case for smart contracts now that the Ico world is dead?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s there’s sort of two different questions or two related questions there. The main one, I think, is well first, first of all, answer the train answer the subsidiary question which is, you know, public smart contract platforms versus basically Consortium’s or permission to platforms. And I think that that’s a it’s a really good and unanswered question, because, you know, I’ll get to the smart contracts thing in more detail, but I think that smart contracts are a viable idea. And there are use cases for them, but a lot of them will be sort of pure Companies that need to interact in a particular way for this to be more efficient. And you know, there are examples in I think logistics and shipping is shipping a pretty, pretty good one. But those don’t need to be public, you know, they certainly don’t need to be proof of work. And proof of work for those projects is wasteful. And so you can do something that it doesn’t even have to be proof of stake. It can just be these 10 people are 10 entities are all have transparency into this blockchain and they’re running nodes and they’re talking to each other. And it’s very cheap and fast, but it’s still a smart contract, but it’s not public. And so I think that there will be some of that. I mean, none of the projects doing that have really caught caught on at this point, but the level of continued to say hello to Steve’s as fast as He’s gonna knock something down. So. So so that’s like, but to get to the bigger question smart contracts, I do think that there are enough use cases that right now seemed kind of isolated and unclear. Just in terms of like, you know, recurring payments, a recurring payment is a smart contract. And obviously we do that with our credit cards now, but there are lots of reasons people don’t like credit cards you do with your bank now all the all the same reasons that you don’t want a bank in the US to have total control over what you do with your money are reasons that smart contracts will be appealing to people as far as an but I also think, I don’t know the numbers. So you know, this is sort of speculative, but I have a sense that the projects that fall under so called defy, are starting to attract users in a certain sense. And a lot of these users are active traders of crypto. But the products that are getting built do have at least potential larger audiences. So, you know, they’re not great right now because you have to be over collateralized to being able to take out a loan on a blockchain that is secured against some sort of asset that is also on a blockchain is is pretty interesting. And it requires probably a decade or two of continued development for that to be both user friendly enough and for there to be enough stuff on blockchains for that to be viable. But I think it’s an interesting and potentially attractive use case for some people. And right now, the people who are using it are you know, like, people Who would be on Wall Street doing financial games, which you don’t necessarily have to love but it’s a part of the world. And it’s, it’s pretty interesting to see that that can break out of, you know, it’s not just Lehman Brothers doing like leverage stuff, it can be just anybody on on their computer at home or you know, whether you’re in Mexico or the US or anything like that. I think that that is interesting, at least I mean, I’m not going to come out and say like, yes, d phi is going to eat the world. Um, but but it’s interesting, I will say that.
Rob McNealy
Well, I think I’m keeping my eyes open I you know, I think the space the there’s so many moving pieces and things that are moving so quickly, it’s going to be interesting to see where things are and, you know, six months to a year I mean, the the horizons right now then the rate at which things are changing, whether it be regulation or technology or just consumers or the economy. It’s It’s crazy how fast things are moving around. Last time you were on here, we did discuss, you know, things like exchanges and fake volumes that was part of our past conversation. And things changed much in the on the exchange side of things. Have you seen that space? Just the way it was before six months ago or things improving getting worse? What’s your take on that?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
In terms of exchanges?
Rob McNealy
Exchanges? Yeah.
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Yeah, it’s it’s actually interesting. My only real observation on exchanges at this point is that there’s way too many of them and people are watching them left and right. And I think that there’s going to be and I was talking a little bit about this with some French reparo from the block. Like there’s going to be a shakeout circle just sold Polonia x two apparently a consortium run by Justin sun, they weren’t able to get enough volume for a US based exchange to make it worthwhile as a relatively large company for them to keep doing it. And So yeah, there’s there’s going to be, I mean, the good thing is we have, I think in a lot and maybe I just haven’t been paying attention, there have been a couple of collapses and exits. But things are consolidating, and things are getting more responsible and more above board, especially with the US exchanges now being more regulated. And you know, there’s different feelings about that. But I think that we’re going to see fewer outright scam exchanges, but as far as businesses go, it’s a thing that people are trying to do, because it has proven to be able to make money. I mean, Coinbase and binance make a ton of money. But, you know, whether a whether that’s still going to be true if there’s not other stuff happening a year or two from now to justify all of the underlying trading going on on these platforms. Or I shouldn’t say The underlying underlying is, are these useful projects is this stuff that actually works and does things for people. The trading is the speculation on top of that. And if there’s not stuff that gets picked up and is actually useful and meaningful, then the speculation will end and even the big exchanges right now won’t last. But certainly exchanges starting now. They’re in for a tough, tough time. Because I think, you know, we’re at a sort of low ebb of interest in the speculation side of things. And I know that you’ve had some, you know, issues with getting listed on exchanges, and there continues to be discussion around that and what’s appropriate and what’s not. And in terms of listing fees, and I think that recently came up, and I’m going to forget, but there was a coin listed on finance that claim Anyway, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna remember who was involved in my going to try and tell this story. But But yeah, the changes are still charging, sometimes huge listing fees. And you know, maybe if you have, like a small exchange that you know, is reputable and you know, the technology is democratizing. So it is, in some ways easier to build them. And so maybe maybe small exchanges can become cottage industries of some sort. But I think that launching big ones or trying to get big at this point is is pretty tough. Because there’s just too many out there.
Rob McNealy
Well, since we’re going to our talk main that soon we’ve been again, re engaging with exchanges, you know, and, yeah, we’re getting quotes anywhere from three to 10 BTC. Right now, just to get a mid level exchanges. Yeah. Yeah. Which to me is still outrageous. But that’s the business model, really the exchange business model currently, unless you’re like a legitimate top three exchange. You Your business models listing fees that really is the business model. And but it’s kind of like a catch 22 as a project, right? Unless you have, if you’re on the tiny exchanges, that will take a risk on you for little to nothing, you’re not going to get enough volume on those little little exchanges to get on a bigger exchange that is more reputable. So you got to pay to get on some of these exchanges to get the volume that you can then make an application to a more reputable or bigger exchange. And there’s, there’s a sequence that has to go in. And so
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
that’s also you know, there’s not that doesn’t necessarily sound terrible, if it’s if there is actually a path towards organic growth. Then, you know, if you as a, you know, project creator, I mean that I think the problem with exchange listing fees, is when, like the, I mean, there’s a problem from your perspective as a project lead, who obviously wants to get visibility for your Project. But if you’re if there are also projects where there is no substance there, but they happen to have the money for the listing fee, and then that becomes legitimation in itself, right. So, you know, there’s a signaling problem there if, you know you’re looking at whether something is on a big exchange as a sign of whether it’s a good project. And so, you know, that that’s a problem with the model. And, you know, I think that there is a lot to be said with, you know, there are obviously some frustrations, but even just sort of from a conventional business standpoint, organic growth is still a viable way to grow any business, including hopefully a cryptocurrency if you’re, as you are out there and kind of pounding the pavement, talking to people about it, differentiating yourself. And you know, if I hope there are paths for that Now in the future, but, you know, if the only way to get somewhere where people can buy your token is to pay $50,000, then that is a problem for the ecosystem.
Rob McNealy
Well, it definitely makes it harder and I and I understand risk. But I think going forward, I think things are going to change. And I think, I think part of the the, I think the Ico world is still there’s still people that have that taste of Ico money. So they still have an expectation. But yeah, I think is you know, Icos are dead, and they’re dead because they were all illegal, and they’re not going to happen again. So I think that rush of misappropriation of investor funds is not there anymore. But I think, and I think it’s interesting. I’ve been talking to some people about what’s happening with American the American markets as far as exchanges go, and I think what’s going to end up happening is that the American exchanges are going to have to D list, the legal Ico token projects that were out there and probably privacy coins at least that’s kind of what I’m here. What are you hearing in that kind of world? As far as the American market goes?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Well, there’s definitely a lot more restrictions coming on obviously, I don’t know about I mean, Coinbase has never traded Mineiro which is, to my mind, one of the actual privacy coins. And so, I mean, I, I think that if there are, I don’t know, enough, I guess, Craig and probably trades Mineiro. But, um, I mean, I don’t know, I haven’t heard anything specific about that. You might know more than I do. But I would be Yeah, I mean, it would be I think, a bad thing if that were to happen if they had to deal with the privacy coins now. The Icos? Yeah, I think that’s, that’s going to be tougher. Because that kind of gives a lot of power to the exchanges to decide what’s legitimate. I mean, obviously, if they’re getting like legal blowback That’s a different story. But if there’s just sort of defensively delisting Icos I mean, I don’t know that that I don’t know what I think about that it feels like that’s not a decision that they should be in the position to make necessarily. I’m with you that it’s not necessarily a bad thing if that’s the outcome, but the implication is that again, exchanges a gatekeeper to legitimacy and I would love for some of these decentralized exchange projects to actually work because I don’t necessarily think that the exchanges should have that gatekeeping power, whether because of fees or because, you know, they just don’t like something. But I don’t I don’t have intel on what the status of those are.
Rob McNealy
You know, I think some of the future I see is going to be the atomic swap wallet technologies that is just there is I like the idea of the the send the taxes to get more popular and these hot swap wallets that are non custodial or You know, atomic swap wallets that are noncustodial. And I think, you know, I’d love to see that the problem with a lot of those wallets is that they don’t their volumes are not reported to the mat, the tracking things like coin Gecko and coin market cap. So yeah, you know, so there may be a lot of volume there that no one’s aware of. And so that’s again where I think like, we don’t have a lot of good signals out there for people because we have the metrics. Yeah. Well, you know, a market cap. And and
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Yeah, like, there’s got to be a solution there. Because we figured out how to get better data out of exchanges slowly. I mean, the exchanges continue to lie. So that’s still noisy itself. But yeah, I mean, it seems like there would be market in market forces that would encourage those atomic swaps to also report volumes in some way eventually, but yeah, right now,
Rob McNealy
I think it’s I think it’s The I think it’s a trackers themselves that are not pulling that data for variety reasons. So you know, you’re out there in the space. What do you think’s coming next? What would be the what are the things that you’re working on right now as far as projects and you know, writing assignments? Are you got any good dirt on anything you want to talk?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Um, I don’t know about dirt. But I mean, there, you know, despite the the bear market for tokens, there does continue to be a lot of interest in a lot of the underlying technology. I think that there’s I should have looked this up. I should have reminded myself before we got on on the phone here, but there is some funding news that actually, let me let me be really a terrible podcaster. And look this up real quick.
Rob McNealy
That’s my job. I’m the terrible podcaster.
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Because I think there is a very interesting company that I actually do want to make sure I mentioned and remind myself they’re called duality. So there’s a company called duality technologies. And what they’re doing is it’s not a cryptocurrency but it’s based on a lot of the same technology and it’s totally fascinating. So they use technology thats related to ck snarks, which is zero knowledge can see ya z cash, right? Yeah, it’s using z, cash and dualities founders were some of the people who helped come up with that. And essentially what they do is they package sensitive data. And they cryptographically rapid in a particular way, that actually allows it to be processed for big data and AI applications. So for example, they can take a bundle of health data or even an individual’s health data and turn it into my cryptographically encoded in such a way that it can still be processed without revealing Any of the data or putting it out publicly, and they just got a good chunk of Intel or a good chunk of investment from Intel and a few other people. And so that’s, that’s like crypto but not cryptocurrency. And I think it’s very interesting to see that overlap. And I think there’s going to be more instances of that of technology that we’ve seen applied in blockchain and crypto, that’s going in a different direction and being applied to other problems. And I’m pretty optimistic about that. Especially because On the flip side, obviously, the last six, three to four months I guess, the new cycle has really been dominated by Libra and Facebook. Which you know, is I’ve been since back in breaker days when this first came out. I’ve been very skeptical of the project and it has been good I think to See the pushback coming from, you know, senators and Congress people who may not all be skeptical for the right reasons, but mostly are just skeptical because Facebook has proven that they don’t deserve our trust. And and I think that that is optimistic too. I think Libra could still become something, but it’s been gratifying to see some of that pushback happen. And then on the other on the sort of flip side of the same coin, you know, two weeks ago, we had China announced that their central bank will issue some kind of digital currency, which I think I’m willing to bet pretty good odds is going to be, you know, centrally manage, not transparent and entirely designed to monitor Chinese citizens and even or non Chinese citizens. And so that’s, you know, I think for a while people have been warning that you know, we realized, you know, a few years in that Oh wait, Bitcoin is not nearly as private as we thought. And so this idea that public Ledger’s or, you know, some sort of blockchain system can actually be used to monitor and control people instead of making them free if you kind of subvert the technology enough that we’ve had, there’s been warnings about that for a while, and it’s now really coming true in ways that are pretty scary, because I think that, you know, a lot of what’s happening in China is really bad. And so to see that us to see technology that you know, people like you and me are supporters of kind of twisted in that way is really, really discouraging, and obviously, unlike, you know, Facebook has to push back against the US government, which still has at least some pro human principles, and the you know, CCP coin doesn’t have that. That problem, they can do whatever they want, they’re in charge. And so we’re going to see honestly some bad stuff come out of that. I think. So. And I think I think that is the biggest story in cryptocurrency right now, even though you know either of those are crypto currencies, they’re just kind of, especially in Facebook’s case, it’s been very interesting to watch them use some of the same language in the same ideas about like banking, the unbanked and frictionless global payments that Bitcoin was was launched, trying to pursue those ideas. And now to see them kind of in frankly, the wrong hands has been discouraging, but again, like, it’s nice to see all the pushback you’re getting, because I think they deserve it.
Rob McNealy
Well, I I totally agree with you. I don’t believe that pretty much anything that Chinese government does is in the best interest of the individual at all. It’s always it’s all it’s always designed to further the power and central control of the state and So if they get all excited about something, I’m going to probably take the opposite view that it’s probably not a good thing, because they’re never going to support technologies that give away their power. And they think that’s where it’s like, I get a little confused by some of the messaging I see from crypto influencers, I get all excited about that news. Yeah. And, and I, and I always just caution, you know, look, these are not people that care about individual liberty or freedom or the centralization by any stretch. So if they’re in if they’re looking at it, they’re looking at it as a way that they’re trying to get ahead of it. And they control it. And so, and I think you’re right on that, but I think Libra was probably a corporate version of that.
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Yeah, like I said, two sides of the same coin. You know, I think the I had different mixed feelings about Libra. I thought on one hand, you know, it would be an Orwellian hellscape with all the data that people give them as far as personal information that combine that data with your financial transactions, and I think they would be very successful. They launched because I think they could just monetize it all through messenger and Facebook marketplace. Yeah. On the other hand, I thought it could be interesting for them to mainstream crypto and then figure out a way to ride on their coattails because they would have to create a lots of on and offer and for that to work, but and I the one thing that I wish somebody would do that had the lobbying powers get the IRS to change and how they elect to regulate crypto transactions instead of property. But maybe it’s a like a foreign currency or something. And I was hoping Facebook would have dealt with that problem, because somebody’s got to deal with that. But yeah, I’m glad it’s stalled. You know, because, you know, I don’t trust Zach and his lockbox any more than I trust, CCP coin, as far as you know, do you want so the question is the only thing the only difference there is Zach doesn’t have his army to go and forces edicts yet, whereas the Chinese government does. But other than that, I mean, they’re, they’re cool. They’re just a surveillance platform. And so in giving first of all your personal information, On top of your financial transactions on top of that did that that’s just our Orwellian and scary to me.
And you’ve identified a really interesting dynamic with some of the people who are excited when anybody does anything that’s remotely close to crypto. Without me, I mean, there are a lot of these people who don’t have the sort of, frankly ideological commitments, that that something like Bitcoin is founded on. And, you know, there are arguments about how this and you know, this is years old, there are arguments about how this underlying blockchain technology could be useful for this, that and the third. And, you know, maybe there are some efficiencies ultimately in you know, something like t zero where you’re trading stocks on the blockchain or, and, you know, maybe there are long term investments that have nothing to do with public tix where you can use this stuff in whatever way to to accomplish something. But, you know, that’s totally separate from being grassroots. Bitcoin is not really a business, you know, you can you can, I think there are some people who obviously made a lot of money off of it. Maybe one of the things that I would really hope to see is an end to speculation in Bitcoin, you know, I think that the price is never going to be stable and there is a certain adoption value in the idea that Oh, Bitcoin is going to be worth $50,000 bitcoins can do with a million dollars, whatever. But I just think it It undermines a lot of the ideas that that are the things that gave it value in the first place. So I’ve always been uncomfortable with speculation. Obviously, it fuels a lot of what happens in the space ether money is doing all kinds of weird and interesting stuff. And I can’t hate that too much. But it is sort of a it’s things interacting in unhealthy ways when you’re focused on speculative gains.
Rob McNealy
Well, I and I agree with you. And I personally believe that, you know, volatility is driven by the speculation if, you know if people were actually using Bitcoin for transactions and large volumes that would stabilize out and that’s what I kind of expressed to people is that everybody’s talking about stable coins and like, the best stable coin is your coin just used a lot.
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
Yeah, exactly.
Rob McNealy
Exactly. You know, and to me, you know, and I agree with you is like when you hear things like staking rewards and things I’m like, you’re actually incentivizing people not using your coin as intended when you do things like that. And to me that’s what we’re doing with Tosca is we’re focused on getting adoption getting users in not speculators. I don’t care about the speculation parties. I care about people using it because we’re trying to solve a problem. But, you know, we’re almost out of time here. So this has gone by really fast. And I love chatting with you and I love your take on things. Where can people find out more about your book and you?
David Z. Morris – Author of Bitcoin is Magic
So yeah, the book, I actually just got done putting together the paperback, it’s all self released, I didn’t want to deal with editors or anybody telling me to not say exactly what I wanted to. So I just I just put it out and I also wrote it really quickly. And so it’s got a kind of like, a little bit of a stream of consciousness, conversational quality to it that I hope is enjoyable to read. But it’s just on Amazon. I wish there was a easy to use crypto funded payments platform for selling books and ebooks that would be great if somebody wants to build that. But for now, it’s just on Amazon and the title is Bitcoin is magic. So that’s easy enough to look up and find and it’s got a really cool cover that I And very happy with. And yeah, otherwise I’m on Twitter @DavidZMorris, and my work is on fortune com every day more or less.
Rob McNealy
David Morris, thank you so much for coming on today. Awesome. Thanks, Rob. Thanks for having me. I’m sorry this took so long to make happen, but it’s been a crazy few months.
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Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author Transcript
Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.
Rob McNealy
Today I am really excited because we are talking to zoobi. He is a very popular rapper out of the UK. And he just finished up a lengthy nine week trip to the United States. And he’s kind of an interesting guy. He is not typical of what I think you would think of when you think of a hip hop or rap artist. So like to welcome the show. Zuby, how are you today?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
I’m very well, thank you. How you doing?
Rob McNealy
Great. I do appreciate taking the time. Are you recovered? Now? It seemed like you had a pretty big whirlwind trip to the US.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Yeah, I wouldn’t go as far as saying I’m recovered, but I’d say that I’m recovering.
Rob McNealy
Well, that’s good. Did you have a good time?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Yeah, it was amazing. Absolutely incredible trip. life changing. Was that the first time you’ve been to the States? No, I’ve been to the states five times before, but it was my first time going in 10 years. And it was also the first time going for career purposes. So I managed to really make the most of it. I never been out there for Along with the exception of New York City, all the cities that I visited I’d never actually been to before. So that was all brand new.
Rob McNealy
So what did you think? So what did you learn on your trip about American culture head going to all the cities?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Well, firstly, I learned that it’s probably easier to view the USA almost like a continent more than just a single country in some ways, because the variances between the states and cities are so big. First of all, you know, you’ve got the different time zones, which you don’t have somewhere like the UK or most other countries, you’ve got different climates, very big range of temperature and different types of weather, range of different laws, cultures, accents, type types of people. Everything is a everything’s pretty different depending on where you go. I mean, even the difference between, you know, going from somewhere like San Francisco to Dallas and then to Atlanta, and then to DC and then to New York. They’re all really different. So I guess I learned, I mean, I already knew that I wouldn’t say I learned it. But I saw just how far an extent the places vary from city to city and state to state. I also learned that a lot of people don’t know who I am, which I didn’t necessarily expect. I had a lot of incidents where I was in, you know, various places in public in the different cities and had people come up to me and recognize me or thank me for my work or very, you know, just say that they like what I do. And that’s, I mean, that’s something I get from time to time in the UK, depending on where I am, because I get people who recognize me for my music, but I’m to be in places that I’d never been to before. And to have that happen. It was it really showed me the impact that I’m having not just locally, but on a on an international level. So that was really, really encouraging. So yeah, those are a couple of things.
Rob McNealy
fame is an interesting thing. I’m not quite famous, but I know a lot of Famous people and and and that rise in getting accustomed to it you know it’s kind of like it’s like from what they’ve told me is you have to like kind of grow into it because you’re not used to it at first I used to live in Ireland I actually studied over there and worked over there you know long time ago probably before you’re born at this point but I was you know it’s kind of interesting you know and I’ve honestly you know, Ireland’s a lot smaller than you know, the republic’s a lot smaller than the UK but it’s like when I tried to explain to my friends that were Irish that had never been to the United States. I said, No offense, this is not me being you know, kind of like this ugly American but your entire country smaller than my state. And we have like 50 more of them in mind. You know, I originally came from Michigan. The Detroit area is where I grew up. I live out Western and Utah now Salt Lake City, Utah, and what you know, and they get like a kind of offended and they said you really don’t understand until you like really come to our country. The United States is not a homogeneous Is coral culture it’s not a homogeneous continent, it is very dirt that’s iconic. But you know what I’m saying? It’s a country and it’s very different all the way around. And I always like to see people’s perspectives that you know, spend time here to see Yo, holy crap. Yeah, it’s not there isn’t just like this one TV stereotypical American thing, right? There’s very, very big differences between the different states and even within a state. On top of that, you know, Texas is very different between, you know, Houston and Dallas. Even people. Yeah, I didn’t I didn’t
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
get to I didn’t make it out to Houston, unfortunately, but I went to Austin, Dallas and Fort Worth.
Rob McNealy
What was your Do you have a favorite or do you want to not say didn’t love the place you go? What was your favorite place?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
My favorite state would have been Texas, probably. Just in general. But um, I liked most of the cities I visited in terms of like, it depends on what level in terms of opportunities and Just cool stuff happening. Like the most cool stuff happened in Los Angeles, but I would probably not want to live there. For example, I think places like Nashville and Austin and Dallas and Fort Worth are a lot more livable than la than New York and San Francisco. But um, it really depends on what you’re after. I mean, I went there primarily to do a bunch of interviews and add podcast invitations and just opportunities for all the stuff that I do. So I primarily hit some of the major cities I didn’t make it out to all of them. I would certainly like to in the future, but um, yeah, I guess. Asking favorite is is kind of a tricky one. But I did really like Texas there. I just felt like, I like the vibe there. I like the people. I think I’m on that wavelength. In some ways. Texas is one of those places to be honest. I kind of liked it before I’d ever been to it. I know a lot of people from there. I know quite a bit about the state and stuff like that and it always just dropped Me in some way that I didn’t really want to visit because I always seem to, whenever I meet people from Texas, I always seem to like them and get on with them and be on some similar wavelength. So I found the same thing when I was out there for a couple of weeks.
Rob McNealy
Well, I think you hit on something, it’s really interesting that you went and did a lot of interviews, and you got on some really major ones, I mean, Joe Rogan, and some of these other you know, big conservative podcasts and, and that’s one of the things that really intrigued me, you know, about you is, you know, okay, you got this English guy, right. So, usually off the bat, you know, English guys are going to typically be more on the American spectrum, at least politically a little more left leaning, and then, you know, you know, you’re black or person of color, and typically, then that’s also going to be generally by American standards, they tend to lean a little more left, and then you’re in hip hop in rap, and that also tends to be very left leaning, but you’re not.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
You know, all those things. You said, I don’t even know if that’s really the case.
Rob McNealy
Fair enough.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Think that way? I don’t think it’s really the case.
Rob McNealy
It certainly it certainly seems that way.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
It does seem that way. Yeah, for a lot of reasons. And then it might lean that way in some aspects, but in a lot of other ways. I don’t really think it does. I just think that illusion.
Rob McNealy
And so but the illusions prevalent, it’s out there. So you went on a lot of these really conservative talk shows and, you know, so I guess I just need to get this out there. Are you a republican? I’m not even American. I know. Um, but are you? I bet you would consider yourself a conservative politically, at least on some stuff. Sure.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
I don’t label myself what people want to label me. I don’t mind. I don’t personally label myself because well for a whole bunch of reasons. Because people have different meanings and interpretations and presumptions that come with certain labels. So I prefer to let anybody else label me if people want to know my certain views on certain things. I’m happy to explain them and express the epistemology behind my thinking and my conclusions. But um, yeah, I’m not I don’t mind being called a conservative, I don’t mind being called libertarian, I probably don’t mind being called a traditional or classical liberal. I mean, depending on who you talk to all these labels can be quite quite different things. I mean, even the definitions between you know, liberal and conservative even between the UK and the US, there’s, there’s quite a bit a bit of a variance. So yeah, I mean, if I were in the USA, I would certainly be more along the lines of Republicans on most issues. But I generally just, you know, from from thing to thing, issue to issue. I, you know, I’m not I’m not sort of totally down one line or the other and I don’t, I don’t believe most people are. I think that’s just kind of the binary thinking and sort of Thinking that can occur when there’s only two sort of viable options, then people seem okay, they need to either totally aligned down this way or totally aligned down that way. But I mean some acid on Joe Rogan, right? I said, it’s funny because we live in a time where people are saying that politics is binary, but gender is a spectrum, right? So yeah, I think the whole idea that it’s either left or right, or red or blue, is, yeah, people talk a lot about social constructs. I do think that’s kind of a genuine social construct. So I certainly lean conservative on some issues. I would also lean certainly in the not in this sort of weird hyper woke progressive, leftist sense, liberal, but in terms of like the normal liberal sense. I’m also a liberal on certain issues. It just depends on what it is and what I think makes sense and what I think is moral and ethical and correct and also what
Rob McNealy
works. You know, I think that’s a good point what works and what doesn’t. I mean, you’re not shy about your political views on anything. In fact, you can be very controversial, you know, things you post on Twitter and things. And I mean, you even reference in conservative icon Jordan Peterson in your music. So you definitely bring politics up. And they tend to be by a lot of people’s standards more right wing at least the United States. Do you think that helps or hurts your career in any way?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Seems to have helped. If I’m going by, by the past 365 days, I’d certainly say it’s helped. I mean, I’m not someone whose politics have changed significantly. I mean, I put out my first album in 2006. And even before I was making music, my views have not shifted much I’ve probably shifted on maybe like two or three issues in the past 15 years. And I’m not even someone who I don’t know i a lot of people view me through a political lens. But I think I’m only interested in politics kind of on the high level, the big idea level, I’m not really so interested in it on the party level. So that’s why you won’t see me tweeting a lot about like specific parties or specific politicians or even breaks it and stuff like that. But the nitty gritty of it kind of bores me, but the overarching ideas and ideals that runs alongside culture and morality and psychology, and religion and other stuff that I think is a lot more interesting. And it’s hard to talk about some of those aspects of society and humanity, either as individuals or as groups without it, crossing over into politics, that’s just kind of natural.
Rob McNealy
So from a high level, do you think culture at least Western culture is going the right direction right now? What this whole woke thing and no,
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
it’s No.
Rob McNealy
Why Why do you think?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Absolutely not? Not even not as not a smidgen?
Rob McNealy
Where’s it going? Where are we going? I guess that’s the question because I have my own opinions. And I don’t think I disagree with you on that many things, either. But where do you think we’re headed right now with the current state of affairs in the West?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Well, I think a lot of people are trying to drive it off a cliff. And, and I think that it’s important for the moderate and sensible people to do that part to contain that. That’s one of the reasons why in the past year, it seems like to a lot of people, it seems like I’ve suddenly become a lot more vocal and outspoken. And that’s why because there comes a stage where you can’t really just sit back and acquiesce and just just watch because the people who are a lot of people who I think are trying to push things in the wrong direction, they’re not going to shut up. They’re very loud. They’re a bold, they’re very vocal. So you need people who are more reasonable and more logical and more rational. Have a better grasp on certain things, or at least an alternative opinion, to also be able to have that conversation and to join up. And if you see something that’s going on out there, whether that’s in your school, your workplace, online offline, and you see something is going in a really bad direction in in either in either way, in any direction, then it’s important to, you know, not just shut up and let it happen, because that’s how bad things take place. Right? So it’s important to sort of balance that out and to make sure that the communication channels stay open. That’s why I love podcasts. That’s why I love being able to have these discussions with people because, you know, as long as people are talking, they’re not they’re not fighting. That’s why I don’t like the idea of censorship. I don’t like the sort of D platforming or the silencing of voices on social media, all that kind of stuff. I mean, that concerns me because all that was going to do is polarize people further People think it’s a solution because it might look like a solution in the short term. But in the long term, I do think that’s going to create far more problems than it’s going to potentially solve. And I don’t think a lot of people have the foresight, nor the understanding of historic history nor human psychology to really get why that’s the case. They think that if you kind of take someone off Twitter that that person no longer exists or their ideas no longer exist and stuff like that. And what is likely to happen in reality is by ostracizing that person and completely excluding them from the conversation. You know, firstly, I’m not sure if that’s moral or or ethical or even legal in some cases, but then, you know, you’re you’re kind of pushing them into the hands of people who are potentially a lot more extreme and would love to get their hands on someone who feels like society or these platforms or whatever has ostracize them. And, you know, I’d rather I’d rather have bad ideas out in the open And then have them hidden in silence. Because if an idea is really bad, or it’s really unethical or it really doesn’t have any support, then you don’t need to fear it being you shouldn’t fear it being voiced. Because as long as you have people who are willing to push back against it, then you can just expose that idea for, for what it is. That’s the way I look at it.
Rob McNealy
Well, they say sunshine is the best disinfectant. You know, and and I don’t know who said that, but I do believe that to be the case. And I think, with this outrage culture and it in the thing is, is, you know, I’m an American, and this outrage culture is getting really scary to me, you know, where we just want to, you know, shut somebody down and take away their rights. And, you know, and, you know, obviously, polls can be a little dubious at times, but, you know, the polls seem to be indicating that a lot of at least on the millennial side, support, you know, getting rid of the First Amendment, and of course, they all hate the Second Amendment, but, And that, to me is just I kind of blamed Government education has been a complete failure. We don’t teach critical thinking we don’t teach, you know, logic and rhetoric and we don’t teach, you know, history. And I think you touched on this a little bit. You know, that gets into a little bit about this anger call. I think it’s almost like our culture has been deliberately the keep stoking this anger in our society right now, at least in the States. This since this last political. The last since Trump came to office over the last couple of years. You know, I’m 47. And so I’ve been through a lot of administrative, you know, changes in presidential campaign elections over my life. And the one thing that we saw that was different, what’s different about the Trump presidency, and I’m not a fan of Trump Personally, I didn’t vote for him. But what I think is interesting is that typically after you have a changing with administration, people are, you know, a little butthurt and disappointed for a week or two. After that election happens. It’s never had, it’s never not been butthurt since he got elected, it’s never died down. It’s Seems like it keeps festering and as much and it’s funny because I think he’s just as a noxious as you know, is that I think he’s completely obnoxious and I can understand why he what he says pisses people off. But if you actually look at what he votes for, and I’m a big believer that I hate politicians, what they say don’t like what they say, Don’t listen to what they say, I look at what they do, what laws do they sign, what power do they actually change and enact? And really from one president to the another, the the really important policies really don’t change very much, but yet the rhetoric around it does. And if you look at what Trump does, he’s not really done anything very much different than the Obama administration. He keeps doubling down on the debt and things like that. Those are the things that I care about what do they actually do? But and so this anger is interesting and a lot of times that anger spills over into culture and and one of the things about what I think is interesting about your music is that you know, your your music isn’t angry. It seems like no, no, not at all. You really push a really positive message, I think in a more of an empowering message, which is kind of different than what a lot of hip hop artists are really doing. And why why do you focus on the positive? Well, I mean, it seems like if so many people in that in this industry in this genre of music are more negative. Why are you a positive guy?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Well, because I am a positive guy naturally. And also there’s so much negativity out there that why would I want to contribute to that more? That’s not what people need people need encouragement. People need positivity people need to be feel emboldened and empowered to improve themselves to go after their dreams to be better people for themselves, for their families, for society, everything like that. So why would I want to go and preach murder, death kill, and all this stuff when I can put out a positive message? I mean, I’ve only got so many only got so many words to work within a song So if I can make a song that’s going to make you feel aggressive and want to go in, you know, I don’t wanna make music that people commit drive bys to keep it real. You know, firstly, that doesn’t, that’s not my background, right? I want to make music with people set gym records to I want to make music that people feel inspired to, I don’t know, go out and get a new job or be successful or start a business or whatever it is, man, anything, anything positive even just to just to believe in themselves a little bit more. There’s so much negativity out there in the world, not just in music, but in general, man. There’s so much negativity out there. You turn on the news, you know, the What do they say if it bleeds, it leads, right? news is just constant fear, fear, fear, fear mongering. So I don’t watch the news. I don’t I don’t want to TV. I don’t read newspapers. It’s just negativity, negativity, negativity, fear, fright, like awful stuff, and it never ends. It’s the same even in entertainment in lots of music. Not all music, but in some music And you know, it’s just, yeah, I mean, and life life is a balance. But like I say, there’s so much negative out there already. And I feel that the negative currently outweighs the positive. So, I don’t want to I’m not interested in my legacy being someone who contributed just more negativity into the world. So from the very beginning, I was like, Okay, I’m not gonna, I’m not going to take that path. I’m not going to rap about that song. I’m not going to rap about those topics. I’m not going to put my put profanity in my music. I’m not going to use the N word in my music, all that stuff. I mean, firstly, that’s not who I am in real life, and I’m not going to fabricate to pretend I’m something in my music, that I’m not in reality, you can go back and listen to all my songs over the last 13 years. everything I’m saying is, everything you’ll hear there is consistent with what I’m saying. Now, that’s never that’s never changed. So yeah, I mean, those are the main reasons so a combination of you know, my own background, how I was raised my own personality, my own message, my mission with what I’m trying to achieve with my music. I say my goal is to, I want my words to have a positive impact on over 10 million people. So through through my music, through my interviews through my podcast, public speaking anything I do, I want to be able to die and say cool, you know, there’s 10 million people on earth, or more, who, if you say zoobi to them, they’ll be like, Okay, cool. Yeah, I like that guy, or he had some kind of positive impact or motivation or inspiration in my life. That’s really where my head’s at. That’s what my heart is.
Rob McNealy
So in preparing for this interview, which actually believe it or not, I did. You know, I was listening to some of your songs, right? I wanted to get a feel for it. And I was listening to perseverance and I was listening to glory. And it was I said to my wife, you know, I was listening to she’s like, what are you listening to? I’m like, I’m going to talk to this guy. I want to see what he’s saying. And I’m like, his rap is different. And and it’s funny because I got some and I actually am old school. So I actually have NWA and Eminem and stuff, you know, in my own music library, and I said, his rap Reminds me of like, self help hip hop.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
No. Yeah.
Rob McNealy
You know, seriously, and I go, this is kind of interesting because it wasn’t like, I got wrapped, I got little kids. And I’m like, I can’t even list them out in rap albums in my house, right? Because I don’t want my kids here and some of that NWA stuff, right? Old. Easy, right? But I said, you know, it’s interesting that, you know, you’re kind of, you’re breaking a mold as far as I can see. I mean, and I’m not going to be I’m not going to try to be as I’m not the super hip hop guy, right? I just, I’m into all sorts of things. But you know, you are breaking a mold. There’s not a lot of hip hop artists that are really kind of focusing on that positive. And you know, I don’t know keeping it pG 13, so to speak. So do you and I respect that right? You are doing something different when I’m talking to you and not try and talk some other guy because I can’t stand a lot of the guys out there that are just mumble rapping around. And and so the question I would have for you, do you think that breaking that mold actually is helping your career or do you think It would hinder it like, has anybody ever come up to you and said, Hey, if you get a little more raw on this thing will sign you and you’ll get bigger? Or do you think that you know you’re going on the path that you want to end with the trajectory that you want? Because you’re breaking a mold?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Yeah, man, I’m someone who. I’m not someone who sacrifices, my principles and my ethics for short term gain in anything. That’s just not how I roll. I’m not someone who, who bends to appease other people. You’re asking before about some of my some of my socio political views, you ask about my music with everything. I’m consistent with who I truly am. And if my goal were to just make a lot of money, or simply become famous, or whatever, there’s other things I would be doing if my goal were to maximize my income. I wouldn’t have left a job as a management consultant to become a professional musician independently, right? Whenever Someone says I’m in it from I’m like, Are you insane? Like I would have been, like, you know, I took a huge pay cut to become a full time musician. But in the long term with the way my vision is and with what my goal is, it’s like, yeah, this is the path that I need to I need to walk. And it might take a while for the world to kind of get it. But I’m not going to change my entire message or even my entire genre or type of music or something to whatever might be currently popular on the radio for six months, just to try to win over some people who aren’t really my real fans anyway, I figured by just by being myself, by being true to myself, both in my music outside of my music, on social media or whatever, not everybody’s gonna like it. And I’m happy with not everybody liking what I do or not even liking me that took me you know, a little bit of time to accept and kind of get used to because when you first start out in music, you kind of want everybody to like you, and you don’t want to rock the boat too much because you don’t want unsettled people or polarized people or anything like that, but as I’ve gotten older, as I’ve gotten more experienced as I’ve gained a better understanding of what it is that I myself believe in, and what I’m not willing to compromise on, or waver on or whatever. And as I felt more emboldened to, and felt it more necessary to voice some of that, what’s happened is my audience has grown 1520 x this year, since February, I’ve gained hundreds of thousands of fans just this year. And that came from me just continuing to be authentic. So I haven’t changed. It’s just that you know, it took it took a while for the world to come around to it and for the message to be particularly powerful. Right, a lot of the stuff I say, I think, you know, whether that’s in interviews or that’s on social media or whatever, I think a lot of it would have been considered. I feel the same way. You mentioned Jordan Peterson earlier. I feel the Same way about him. Right? I think a lot of the stuff he says, you know, 15 years ago would have been considered common sense, or maybe a little bit mundane or banal or something. It’s like, yeah, of course, you should clean your room and work on yourself first. But in 2018 2019, these messages have become somewhat lost in modern Western society. So it’s necessary, again, to say some stuff, which may almost seem obvious, and, you know, and seem common sensical. And there are so many people who are afraid to say that stuff, right. And so by someone being willing to stick their neck out and say some of the things that other people aren’t willing to not for the sake of being controversial, or causing problems or just trolling or triggering people or whatever, you know, with an actual reason behind it, then I found a lot of people gravitate to that because a lot of people feel like they can’t speak up or they can’t necessarily articulate things in The way they’d like to be able to one thing i a comment I get a lot now, both in real life and online is people kind of saying, Man, you you say things in a way that I feel or I agree with, but I can’t. I can’t articulate and express them in the way that you are able to. And really that’s what I’m that’s what writing music is even about. Being a songwriter. If you had asked me what makes a good, a good songwriter, or a good rapper, I’d say it’s someone who’s able to articulate things in a way that people relate to and connect with, in a way that most people can. Comedians do the same thing, right? They take stuff that’s I mean, that’s what that’s the funniest comedy when it stuff that you you’ve kind of thought that way when you felt that thing before, but you wouldn’t have been able to put it together in the way that comedian did.
Rob McNealy
It’s funny, I have a really dark sense of humor, very sarcastic, and I’ve actually been I’m looking at doing some funny kind of stand up stuff and some of the stuff my wife just looks at me, she’s like, you can’t say that in public. And I’m like, but they’re all thinking it too. Yeah. You know, and, and I think, you know, they say, you know, you know, tell people the truth, that’s great, but make sure you make them laugh or they’re gonna kill you. Right, you know, and I think that’s where we are right now. And, and, and I’m very, I don’t care anymore where I am. I mean, I say stuff on Twitter that gets me pissed off or people pissed off at me because, you know, I’m, you know, it’s when it goes on on most social issues. I’m very liberal on how I think government should interact with people. But I think personally, I live a very conservative life I just, you know, I’m like friends, I think people if they want to do drugs, do drugs, but on the other hand, I think it’s a bad idea. So I tell my kids not to do drugs, but I don’t think the state being involved with that helps the situation in fact that usually creates more problems and you know, and the one thing that’s interesting like it’s all on assault this election cycle, and I think it’s because so much of the American me is I don’t know straight up communist at this point I don’t know how to define it. But I’m pretty much everybody on the left running for president is communist is all I can see. And I know a lot of and I don’t see that, you know, I read history I just finished a book about the finish war and I just finished a book about called bread famine, which talks about, you know, what happened to Ukraine during the Soviet empire and, and so I read history, right. It’s not like, you know, and and it’s funny in even if you read gulag archipelago, which I definitely if you can get through it. It’s a really enlightening book. Yeah. About a third of the way through Volume One or two.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
I’ve actually I’ve actually got the, the like, I guess you’d call it abridged version where they’re, they’ve put the whole thing together. So I’m actually listening to it as an audio book.
Rob McNealy
Yeah. And and it’s it’s lengthy, but the length, it’s interesting, because, you know, when I started reading that and listening to the language and how people were You know, basically the recounting of how the propaganda was in the Soviet Union. And then you just turn on CNN, and and listen to any of these people running for office. And it’s literally saying the same thing. And they’re demonizing cool locks. These billionaires are the coolest, but the fact is, when they when they say billionaire, they mean anyone making $200,000 a year. That’s a cool lock. And it’s funny because it’s the same playbook, almost verbatim. It’s not even unique. But we don’t even teach history in this country. So people don’t even know any different that this is all this is just a repeat. It’s a rerun. It’s a
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
do you do you think that people saying it even know that it’s a rerun? I don’t think so.
Rob McNealy
I would say, Well, I would say like the Bernie Sanders type absolutely does because he spent time in the Soviet Union. So I think he probably does. And I think he’s probably a true believer. I think some of the other ones are just, they’re just pawns trying to get power and they’ll say whatever they’re told to say by their handlers. But I think the The thing that kind of scares me right now is that these kids are like, you know, anywhere from you know, 20 to 30 seems to be, you know, they’re just, they’re just espousing this, this communism, this this socialism, and that they’re all victims. And it’s funny and I just say look, I you know, I’m not a billionaire like I’m not a rich Dude, you know, but I can say that if you’re going to blame your life’s failures, it’s not these those fault or it’s not, you know, Bill Gates fault you’re struggling.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
It’s not they’ve made they’ve made life better for you in fact,
Rob McNealy
uh, yeah, it’s always people on their iPhones on Twitter on their Microsoft computer in their court dynamic, you know, and and part of that just, they’re young. I mean, I get it, but you know, I grew up poor so I know what that looks like and and really in and I just posted a tweet earlier today that talked a little bit like look, I grew up poor, my parents made bad decisions with money. I was raised to be financially illiterate. I didn’t understand personal management, personal finances. And you know, but I never blamed anybody else. I blamed my parents when I was angry and young. But sure, I didn’t blame rich people. I said, You know, I wanted to learn from them because I wanted back then I said, hey, look, I don’t why knew even when I was in high school, I don’t want to have my life like it is right now. And what do I need to do to get better? And I looked for mentors to help me and I looked for books, and I read books on personal finance and small business and, and, and where I am today is a much different, you know, standard of living, though, and I grew up with, and it was because I made it and it was hard. It was hard. And as it’s supposed to be. I think it is I don’t think he I don’t think you’d become strong. Growing up being a victim. I think. In the end, the thing is when people and this is where politicians I think are pretty smart, is that if they make people that are failures, or people that are struggling, and I don’t mean that in a negative way, I mean, everyone fails. I’ve failed more than I’ve been successful in my life, but you got it but going back to your song, perseverance And this one I like that song is that you got to keep getting back up, you got to keep doing it. And, you know, you’re an overnight success, like 15 years in the making. You know what I’m saying? It’s like, it’s like, how many and I’m gonna bet, you know, without even knowing all the stuff you went through how many times were probably people told you why are you quitting your job did me musician, I’m gonna bet you had people like question that decision process. You know, and I’ve had people do the same thing when I wanted to be an entrepreneur, right? It’s like, well, how, you know, how can you just not have a paycheck every week? You know that that and I’m like, Look, you know, I don’t want to be a slave to a paycheck. Sure. Because if you if you get a paycheck, that’s all you’re going to make. Why would you limit yourself?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
It’s always lonely. I mean, I always feel some kind of bond between artists and entrepreneurs. Because it’s a it’s a lonely path, you know, because that’s only a relatively small percentage of the population. It’s always it’s always going to be a minority and it probably should be. But there are so many things people go through. Whether it’s starting a business, or doing something creative, whether that’s acting, singing, being a rapper, or doing both of them combined as I do, and yeah, there are certain things that are. It’s hard to explain to someone else who isn’t also, or hasn’t also been on that same kind of journey. I mean, it’s just it’s a whole different mentality. The highs are higher, the lows are lower. And just having that ultimate feeling of Yeah, man, this is this is totally on me. I mean, any success I get cool, like I’m taking the I’m taking credit for that. You didn’t make.
Rob McNealy
A friend of mine just got his first Ferrari. Now it’s not even new Ferrari. He was a use Ferrari, but he’s an entrepreneur, him and his wife I’ve known for a long time. They started their business 1516 years ago now. They now currently employ over 60 people they created 60 jobs, they pay a barber minimum wage. And some of the jobs are like entry level non skilled kind of jobs. He just bought his first Ferrari. Like, it wasn’t even that much, you know, considering what a new Ferrari can cost. And it’s funny when he posted pictures of it and I said, Dude, virtual high five, but he was surprised at how many people were negative about that. And we’re like shooting I’m like, Dude, that guy I cuz I help I worked in his store with him. And when he was younger, and they only had one star nine, three retail locations and, and I literally was in there when he was helping putting in his floors, because he’s putting in his own floors for his store. I mean, and you’re like, Dude, this guy worked his ass off 5060 hundred hours a week for like a decade before they really started making money. And now they’ve created jobs for people that wouldn’t have had him otherwise. And now to celebrate he’s got enough money that he can make cash for you know, it’s not even that expensive a car but less than 100 grand. Yeah, and the people is funny and sad at the same time. How many people would shit on that?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Yeah, it’s um, it doesn’t surprise me anymore. You know, it does not surprise me. I mean, again, I’ve been doing music since 2006. And one reason I’ve been able to be so resilient, and I guess astute in some ways this year, for people who are kind of seeing me for the first time is, it’s like, this isn’t new. It’s just the volumes gone up. Right? Like I’ve been dealing with, both on the love side and on the hate side, right having people, whether that’s people recognize you in public or want your autograph or hating on you on some internet forum or talking smack on you on YouTube or social media, like I’ve been dealing like, it’s been more this year than ever before. But I’ve had that slow build of over a decade to get used to it. And with what I’ve seen, it’s like, it doesn’t matter. I mean, you’ve got two different types of people you’ve got, you have celebrators and you have haters, and that’s what it is like, you can have someone who, like I love seeing other people succeed. When I see someone else succeed, if I see someone post online, like Yeah, I just did this, whether it’s I just hit a million views on My YouTube channel, I just, I just released my hundredth podcast episode. I just got promoted at work, I just started a business Whatever. I’m in there, congratulations, man, well done like love it love it. It inspires me. I’m like awesome. Other people are succeeding, you have other people. And I don’t even know what the split is the other this might even be the majority, who see someone else have some kind of success or some sign of looking like success. And their immediate emotional reaction is not the thing well done for that person. If they can do it, I can do it. Their thought is either jealousy or envy, or a feeling that somehow by that person succeeding, instead of taking it as inspiration, this is coming back to that whole billionaire thing, right? It comes from this idea of, you know, you have people who think that life is zero sum, so by someone else succeeding, they then can’t succeed, whereas it’s the opposite like people aren’t. People are not poor because billionaires exists like people have this idea. And it’s a it’s a, it’s a scarily prevalent idea because people don’t understand economics, that people are poor, because the billionaires are just hoarding all the wealth, right? There’s just X amount of money in the world and the nonsense, these people are just hoarding it, and so no one else can get it. And so all we need to do is like, take it off them by force or whatever. And it’s like, no, that’s not how it works, right? Bill Gates having a billion dollars, takes nothing away from me. In fact, quite the opposite, right. Like, there’s nothing stopping me from also earning you know, if I if I were capable of and I had the right idea, whatever, I can also earn a billion dollars. But you know, it’s not it’s not like having Okay, you can only have this many and it’s going to stop. So people don’t understand that the pie is always growing. And so as a result of that, I think that I mean, it might be some kind of primal instincts because some things I guess are zero so if you’ve got a certain amount of food, okay to say an actual pipe people talk about piece of the pie if you have an actual pie You have eight people, and someone literally does eat half of it, then you’ve only got half left for the other seven people. So like, that’s like, Hey, man, that’s not cool. But that’s not how the economy or money or success
Rob McNealy
because other people can make size of theirs.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Exactly. Exactly. You can keep making pies. Yeah,
Rob McNealy
so I was gonna say, you know, one of the things I think that a lot of people miss, and the zero sum game kind of thing is that there’s a there’s an infinite resource that no one ever talks about. And that’s human creativity and ingenuity is unlimited. We can solve most of our problems. And you know what, you don’t even need most people to really be focused on that I have this kind of magic number mind brain that, you know, my experience is 3% of anybody as the one that’s doing everything, you know, 3% of the big creators 3% of the big thinkers 3% of the ones that are really changing the world. 97% are along for the ride typically, but You bet. So to me, I don’t even care if 97% I care about helping those 3% make all the difference. And the difference is the infinite creativity. I just saw a little clip from Bezos, like he’s the the late phases and Bill Gates are the big bad guys did your because politicians are kind of pulling them out. Right. But it was interesting is it was a clip from 97. Right? And so it was like, Amazon was like three years old. And dude, the guy was smart. Right? And, you know, you go look, and he basically I put a post on my Twitter a couple days ago. And it was like looking at, you know, why he wanted, you know, online store because he saw the trend. He knew that this is going to be a big thing. I want to do internet stuff. He didn’t go into the bookstore because he had a passion for books. He picked the books because it had the most number of titles in one industry that would affect so many other industries. So it was the great place to start. And most people don’t know this, but especially these kids that are all communists and they’re 20 years old. Is that They were a bookstore for like six or seven years. And all they did is books until they, you know, they are not but it was the 90s, early 2000. A lot of people don’t even know that anymore. They’re like, Oh, Amazon’s and everything like, no, they started and got traction in one industry. And then they went to the next industry, they disrupted books and then disrupted music. And most people don’t know that. And so it’s like, but he had a plan. And he’s like, This clip is amazing. You should go take a look at it, because it just says, look, we picked this this and this is why we did this. And it’s like, Dude, that guy didn’t get rich by accident. He didn’t inherit his money. He was freaking smart. And he used the creativity and that was one of the biggest employers on the planet. And and so it’s like, okay, he just didn’t fall into it. And and people who don’t understand these things are ridiculous. But I know we’re getting close on time. You know, I want to hit on one of the things back to this whole concept of perseverance and and being, you know, that overlap between artists and entrepreneurs. You’ve recently released an E book, and it’s called zombies. Strong advice. zoobi Guide for fitness for everybody. So tell me a little bit of what made you write a book? And then tell me a little bit about what it what it’s about.
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
Yeah, sure. So I’ve been training for actually longer than I’ve been been rapping, I’ve been going to the gym since I was like 15 years old, started off not really knowing what I was doing and then stumbling my way along and really working out what I was doing. Maybe when I was my 919 or so or my early 20s and making good progress, you know, getting stronger, improving my physique, honing, my diet, everything like that. And I wanted to basically write a book that would be a simple and concise guide to what people need to know about mindset, nutrition and training. So for it’s primarily aimed at beginner to intermediate level, whether people want to build muscle, burn fat, gain, weight, lose weight, eat better, feel better, trained better. So it’s a it’s a relatively short book. It’s under 100 pages. And I wanted to just lay it out in simple layman’s terms of this is what you need to know and do away with the stuff that you don’t need to know. There’s so much confusing, conflicting information and misinformation out there. And nutrition and training are two topics, which are actually relatively simple once you really understand the basics. So I wanted to lay out the basics for people in a way that they can really understand it, and take that and essentially run with it for life. It’s the book that I wish someone had given me when I was 15. And just said, Look, just read this, understand these principles. Don’t get sucked into all the nonsense and do this. And if you’re consistent with it, and you work hard, you will achieve whatever goal you are aiming at in terms of your physique and your health and your strength and so on. So that’s really what strong advice is. So I put it out there as an E book initially, and you know, sold sold well. And then lots of people started asking me for physical copies. So I did a physical run in August, which sold out in a couple of weeks time. So those All went and now as we record this, we’re approaching Christmas in seven weeks. So I’m currently doing the next pre order for the physical books. And I’ve also recorded the audiobook version when I was in Nashville. And there will be an audiobook version coming as well. In the next couple of weeks. I narrated it myself. I’m a rapper, so I figured I had to. So yeah, so it’ll be available on ebook, physical and audio book. So yeah, that is strong advice, newbies guide to fitness for everybody.
Rob McNealy
Where can I get the book?
Zuby Udezue – Rapper and Author
The book is available on my website, Team zoobi.com. And if you go to if you wanted to get the physical copy right now the best place to look is just if you go on my Twitter at zoobi music zUv why music, then? I’ve currently got the physical book preorder available there. I will put it on my website as well. That’s a good reminder. But I’m at the moment for the E book. Yeah, Team zoobi calm and the physical. You can get that via the link on my Twitter.
Rob McNealy
Zuby have had a really great conversation with you today and I do appreciate your time and you know, I’ve really enjoyed your message and I think what you’re putting out there is really good positive stuff and I want you to keep up with it, man, you’re doing some really killer stuff. I appreciate it man. Thank you.
Episode Links
Guy Kawasaki, Famous Author, on His Book The Art of the Start
Guy Kawasaki, technology evangelist and author, on his book The Art of the Start.