Crypto

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains Transcript

Brad Kam - Unstoppable Domains

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Hey folks today Rob McNealy here. And I am talking to the co founder of unstoppable domains, Brad cams. Brad, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Great. Thanks for having me.

Rob McNealy
Well, I appreciate you coming on. I’ve been a big fan of what you’ve been doing now for. I don’t know, I heard about you guys probably about a couple months back. And I actually got to talk to you offline, because I actually think I want to buy one of your domains. But you’re going to educate me and the audience today about what your domains are doing. And what I’m, before we not kind of get into all that. Let’s talk about you a little bit. Give me a little bit of history about you. What’s your background?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yes, I’m from Atlanta. I’ve been starting companies since college days, started out in the real estate world and actually after the last economic crash started buying up homes during this period where they dropped by like 80 90% in Atlanta, so it was pretty, pretty wild, pretty wild, pretty wild situation, but eventually kind of realized I needed to, I needed to get into the software game needed to get to San Francisco needed to get into startups. That’s really where the big change was happening. So I moved to San Francisco in 2012. And I moved into this house called 20 mission, which has been referred to as a house that Bitcoin built in various publications. Because it was a Bitcoin hacker house where the second Bitcoin exchange in the US launched in our basement of Vitalik came and gave a talk before Ethereum launched in the courtyard, pretty much everybody there was doing something Bitcoin related. So I kind of moved to San Francisco and at the same time, just kind of completely dove into crypto related things and kind of haven’t looked back since then. But in general, been doing startups.

Rob McNealy
Very cool. So tell me what is Unstoppable Domains all about?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
So it’s about free speech tech, it’s about creating a censorship resistant internet and we’ll We do is we build domain names on blockchains. So we have a domain registry similar to like a.com. Except for it’s part of a smart contract on a blockchain. So we’ve got crypto Ethereum. And the way it works is is every domain is stored by you in your cryptocurrency wallet, a traditional domain would be stored by like GoDaddy or your registrar or something like that. And because you have this mandatory custodian, they can move the domain around, they can take it away. So a blockchain domain is is one that you can that you control, it’s a self custody. ERC 721. And you use the domains. For websites for censorship resistant websites, you store your website content on IPFS or another decentralized storage network. And you can also use them for payments. And this is kind of weird. This is different than a traditional domain. The same domain can work for both websites and payments. So I’ve got Brad crypto, you could type that into a browser and see my website or you could type that into a cryptocurrency wallet, and you can send me Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever you can send any currency essentially to one domain. Okay,

Rob McNealy
so how does that work is how does it work? So how do you make money? How do I get a domain?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yeah, so the way it works is is you can go to unstoppable domains calm, it’s gonna look similar. It’s kind of like our version of a GoDaddy, you can type in domains into the search bar, you can check out you can pay with credit card or crypto. After you do that you can manage your domain meaning that you add your crypto addresses so you can receive money to it and launch a website, a website on decentralized storage. So we’ve got a bunch of little tools in there kind of like a decentralized Wix where it’s really easy with a few clicks to go and build your website and launch.

Rob McNealy
So is this a one time payment one and done thing or is this like a subscription model like an annual model like a lot of much of the other registrar’s that are out there?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yeah. This is a one time fee. And the reason why is because it should just be something that you control and feel like you can control forever. If you have a subscription, you have these risks where the registry could just jack up the price on you. And there was a really kind of crazy thing that’s been going on in the traditional domain world around.org, where they’re selling the what was previously a nonprofit to a for profit company and talking about jacking the prices by three x. And all of these essentially, most nonprofits in the world are using.org. And now they’re all kind of at risk, where they’re under the you know, they’re under the under the thumb of this, of this registry that can just change prices whenever. So a once simple, easier, safer for the user.

Rob McNealy
So do you so the I guess the question I would have, and I’m just trying to understand because I’m actually kind of interested in this project for Tosca, actually. And so if you go away, Does it still work?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yeah. Yeah, you’re relying on a theorem and you’re relying On the ipfs protocol, which is a decentralized storage network, although Pretty soon, you’ll be able to rely on many different decentralized storage networks. So I would say that’s a little bit less of a risk, because you can always just put your website on multiple networks. For aetherium, though you are relying on on a theory and still being there and stable, so doesn’t doesn’t rely on unstoppable domains. Once you have the domain, it’s yours doesn’t really matter what happens to us you already control it.

Rob McNealy
So essentially, when you say it’s on a theory, does that mean that that’s where the DNS is located? So I’m hitting, that’s where the I type in POS network and then all or whatever it would be on your protocol. I’m hitting the Ethereum network and that’s just a permanent DNS record through a theorem.

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yeah, so if any of your any of your your community has ever used like my ether wallet, for example, which is a theorem wallet, so there, they have my ether wallet, crypto, and so you can type it into it. browser and you go there and when the browser when you type in my ether wallet crypto the browser goes and reads the Ethereum blockchain, finds the my ether wallet crypto domain, and then goes and looks for the hash where the content is located at the ipfs. Hash, and then it shows you the shows you the website.

Rob McNealy
So you said you can put it on multiple networks. How does that work?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Well, I said that I don’t want to maybe over complicate something, I said that purely to say that you don’t need to bet on any one storage network. Right now we’re using ipfs, because that’s the one that’s the most mature and has, you know, great tools and a lot of developers already using it. And so what the way that works is I upload ipfs and then people anywhere can store and share my website to the network. So instead of having my website stored on Amazon Web Services, where if they decide they don’t like what I’m doing, they can just flip me off. I can just turn me off. Instead, I have dozens or hundreds or maybe even thousands of different people all storing a copy of my website and unlikely they’re all just going to decide to turn me off all at once.

Rob McNealy
Exactly. So for this way, do you notice any kind of lag time or speed difference between DNS on a traditional registrar or a DNS on unstoppable

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
so the theory of look apart is quite good, quite easy, quite fast. The IP Fs the how fast website content loads is based on to things it’s based on how many people you’ve got, that are storing and sharing your website. And you it’s also based on how like close they are geographically to you. So what this leads to is, if your website’s popular, then it’s also performance. It also works well, which is kind of like in a weird way. It’s kind of like the opposite of a lot of traditional web systems where you like get DDoS like you get too much traffic. And things go down. Whereas here, if you have a whole bunch of demand, you’re probably also going to have a whole bunch of supply of websites of copies of your website being stored around. So I guess that’s the long answer. The short answer is right now because it’s early. It doesn’t work that well. But the moment something gets popular, it’ll work quite well. So it has this kind of like opposite of the regular internet approach. As it scales as it scales, it gets better.

Rob McNealy
Is there a way to then to use unstoppable for the DNS, and then just pointed to a normal web server host somewhere?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Sure, you could do that I think you would lose, lose a little bit of the advantage, though, because what we’re really the purpose of all this is to have a censorship resistant internet is to have essentially self custody of both your domain and your website so that neither of those can be points of failure where you have to rely on other companies like you control that stuff. And no one can really stop you from publishing A browser might say, like, Hey, this is a really, you know, you know, this is illegal, what you’re doing, and we don’t want to show this record. So there’s always like that level of place where somebody could try to, you know, block you from being seen. But that’s different than somebody just being able to take you down. Like right now, registrar can just say, we don’t like what you’re doing, we’re going to, we’re going to, we’re going to take the domain away, you know, right now, Amazon Web Services can just switch you off. And, you know, of course, you know, in the US, I don’t think this is, you know, as big of a problem, although there are certainly issues here as well, but around the world, there’s, you know, all kinds of issues with these tools. So,

Rob McNealy
so do you think that going forward, especially with crypto, do you expect that there’s gonna be actual censorship of different types of cryptocurrencies now, and I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m trying to play devil’s advocate a little bit because, you know, I’m involved with a crypto project as well. And the one thing you hear about everything from all these kryptos essentially censorship resistance censorship resistance, the most important thing, blah, blah, blah. The question is, you don’t really hear about too many kryptos actually being censored. Yet, do you expect that that will change in the future?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Well, I think the very nature of it is censorship resistant, like so for example, like Bitcoin and aetherium, do not require permission in order to get an account from anyone, they’re able to be sent anywhere to anyone. So they’ve already proven their censorship resistant use case in the market very early on. And this was very controversial. One of the early use cases of Bitcoin was sending money to WikiLeaks when they got shut off. And regardless of how you feel about them, the fact that there was no way for anyone to stop that was, in a sense of first the first time that somebody was ever able to publicly fundraise for a lot of money completely against the will of the United States and various other countries. And they had no way to stop because of its censorship resistance. So it’s really about like, how do the tools work? And I think you can do the same thing that you can do for currency with domain names. Right now. domain names On the sort of fundamental level, they get taken away, they can get taken away. And if you change the power structure, then you kind of change the entire ecosystem. So that’s that’s the idea is like cryptocurrency is like a safe, open source permissionless space to build tools on top of where everybody can, everybody can join in, everybody can be a part of it. And that’s part of the reason why I, it’s important on the fundamental layer. It’s not like every single person is getting censored, they’re not. But we all benefit from the open source, the open source tech because of this, like social, social, you know, social cooperation thing. We’re all working on the same stuff. We’re all building stuff that’s more and more interoperable. There’s innovation all over the world, like so. It’s not just about the people getting censored, although they matter. And I think in the on the website side, it’s a pretty big deal. Like there’s, you know, a law in Turkey that says that a read that a hosting service is not allowed to happen. Have the word gay on any website content automatically pre banned naked as well. You see a lot of this in particular, there’s been some pretty weird cases with startups using l y dot L y. And when the Islamic in Libya came, took over, they started taking down some websites, including porn websites and things like that. Your basic internet infrastructure should not have those kinds of random points of failure, where people can its problem is people, like people that you shouldn’t have anyone in charge of what’s okay to say. Applications can still create an experience where they, you know, remove the harshest or the most offensive voices if they choose, but it’s still a better internet for everybody. If I can then go choose a different browser. If I don’t like what they do, and I think that makes a lot of sense.

Rob McNealy
Do you feel that Going forward, as demand starts increasing that, that the speed to deliver these on, you know, unsensible website, do you think that’s going to improve over time? And you said, there’s gonna be more options? What options are there going to be for? You know, besides IPFS?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yeah, well, so there’s there are, you know, several in the works that are, you know, advancing very quickly. ipfs is a couple of years ahead. But there’s there’s several that are advancing very quickly. And I think the idea is, is that you’re going to want to have your content on maybe three to five, just a sort of like an extra, an extra safety layer. But in regards to kind of the speed and performance, it’s really about how many people are storing and sharing that website. And so that’s about, in part how popular the website is. And so I think right now, the only problem is, is is not so much the way the tools work, it’s that there aren’t enough popular websites yet. And those are coming And I think the tools are just getting Easy enough where people are starting non technical people are starting to build stuff all over the place. And that’s been kind of one of the new steps. That’s happened really just in 2020. I would say, even before now it wasn’t. And now we’ve got this thing with browsers. So Opera browser, which 80 million users on their Android app can now just type in a dark crypto domain, just like they would a.com. And that just happened today. That was kind of the big, big, decentralized web news for us today. So I think it’s really just that there aren’t enough. There aren’t enough websites yet. But the stuff the stuff actually works, you would just need a lot of people storing it in order to get really, really good censorship resistance and really good uptime.

Rob McNealy
So what do you see about protecting websites from denial of service attacks? does this affect that in any way or help with that at all?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
I yeah. Because essentially what happens is if you get a whole bunch of traffic, it as long as that well, so It doesn’t, it doesn’t automatically prevent malicious actors. But you can do things like say, I will only permission these wallets or wallets with these criteria to visit a website in the first place. So you can create like easy kind of locks on your website if you don’t want to, if you if you’re at risk of those types of things. Ultimately, I would just say that, in general, if you think about, like, what’s really happening if Amazon Web Services, you know, used to store essentially all the website data on their servers, and now all of a sudden, we allow anybody in the world who has extra storage space to offer it up to anybody in the world. We’re going to get a marketplace and it’s going to be a lot more efficient than what we’ve got over here. So I think it’s just that like this model of open source marketplace, you know, peer to peer marketplace for storage space, just I think it just makes the internet better and basically every way over the long term. You know, if we’re talking if we’re saying like, you know how performant is it over the next year, I would say, you know, it’s going to be a little, it’s going to be a little inconsistent, depending on geography, depending on the specific website, some websites are going to work far better than others, because they have more, they have more nodes sharing them. So you’re going to have these kinds of clunky things. So it’s kinda like 1990s level internet. But the point is, is that it works like it does work. We do have a decentralized web, that functions, it’s going to need all the tools and it’s not it’s going to need a lot of love before it, you know, it can really, you know, migrate over the previous, you know, the previous kind of internet infrastructure stuff. But it does work for the censorship resistant use cases. And it does work for daps you know, cryptocurrency applications that, you know, are trying to remove all the points of failure in their applications, but they still have the domain name problem, and they still have the website on Amazon Web Services problem. So it solves, you know, these these two key problems for them. And then we’ve also got the youtubers so the crypto YouTubers have you know been getting their videos taken down. And you just put up those videos on decentralized web and then no one can take them down. Now we’re going to need aggregators to make it easy for, you know, for everybody to find that stuff, YouTube’s great at the discovery part. So obviously we have some work to do. It’s not going to work tomorrow, but you can go ahead and put them there. Especially if YouTube takes him down. Definitely go put them up. And you can do new things like you can charge for them, you charge 25 cents for them. You could have a tip button in case you don’t want to charge but it’d be great if it’s easy when someone likes your video that they can just easily tip you crypto. There’s all kinds of new stuff you can do.

Rob McNealy
So are your unstoppable domains, would you are they compatible with things like NginX and CloudFlare

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
CloudFlare has done a lot of has done a lot of things to integrate with Etherum and IPFS. So CloudFlare is is kind of very far along I would need to look a little closer at what engine x is doing. I just don’t have I don’t, I don’t actually have enough personal knowledge. They’re

Rob McNealy
very cool. So where would you say you are in your roadmap? What’s next for you? You got the opera integration done now, which is a huge thing. Where what’s the next big thing you guys are working on?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Yeah. So we’ve got, you know, we’ve got our registries out, we’ve got crypto and dot zil. We’ve got over 200,000 domains registered. So they’ve been started. That process started about a year ago. So there’s domains that have been being being registered unclaimed ever since then. We have been mostly focused on the wallets so there’s like my ether wallet, trust wallet, my crypto coin Oh, me atomic, several others coming soon, where you can send money using the domains. There’s also a Chrome extension. So it’s a unstoppable Chrome extension. So if you prefer to use Chrome you can use it also works in brave and then opera. So that’s the that’s the that’s the native announcement of the first browser. The first major browser to ever support a non DNS domain name. Attention so far as we know because it’s pretty much been all DNS before this it’s not just about blockchain domain you know blockchain Domain Name System they’ve never supported anything that wasn’t you know just part of this this one kind of I can I can control DNS system now it’s all about making the tool is easier to build build websites. So that’s a that’s a big focus there’s templates like I mentioned for decentralized Wix there’s people at Cairo crypto you can easily launch your own decks there’s a bunch more stuff like that that are that are coming tools just to make it easy to build websites.

Rob McNealy
Very cool stuff. Bradley cams. Where can people find out more about your domains unstoppable?

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Well, you can do UnstoppableDomains.cam. or check us out on Twitter, UnstoppableWeb or Telegram UnstoppableDomains. There’s always a conversation going on in there.

Rob McNealy
Very good. Bradley, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Brad Kam – Unstoppable Domains
Thanks a bunch.

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Joe Vezzani – LunarCRUSH Transcript

Joe Vezzani - Lunar Crush

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy 0:01
Okay, today we’re talking to Jove a Zani. He is the CEO and founder of lunar crush, which is right now the app that I have the biggest crush on for the crypto world. I’m really, really excited to talk to him about that. So, welcome to the show. Joe, how are you today?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 0:18
I’m doing well. Rob, thank you so much for having me.

Rob McNealy 0:22
Well, I appreciate taking time. You know, as someone who’s been in the crypto space for a little while, I always like to see the people doing something different in the space. And the other thing that’s really interesting about what I what you’re doing here is that you kind of care about UI and UX, which seems to be the wall in the crypto sphere. So before we jump in, why don’t we just go and you know, let’s learn a little bit about you. How Who are you? How’d you get into this space?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 0:51
Yeah, for sure. You know, got started pretty similarly. I feel like to a lot of other people that I hear you You know, talk about crypto is, you know, at some point, you know, someone that you know, or, you know, you kind of just run across Bitcoin. And, you know, I was at the time it was, you know, probably like late 2014, early 2015, and my now co founder, john, as he just kind of came up to me and we were working together at the time, he’s like, hey, do you know what Bitcoin is? And I was like, I don’t know. And it was like, his eyes lit up, like he got to tell someone new and learned a little bit about Bitcoin. And, you know, for me, you know, kind of coming out of school with a finance degree, worked in technology and startups before it was kind of this intersection of finance and tech that I was just like, I need to be a part of this somehow. And then, you know, started looking a little bit more at everything else, and you start to kind of go down the ladder a little bit and you’re like, you know, at the time, it was just mostly just Bitcoin. That was some other stuff. But you start to figure out like, what’s this ethereal thing and Litecoin and you start to learn a little bit more and you’re like, Wow, there. There is a lot down this rabbit hole, and I need to learn more about it. And so, at that time, we were just kind of going back and forth. And you know, we were the people that everyone was like, you know, hey, what do I buy? What’s the next hot tip? And what do I do next? And, you know, just kind of got deeper and deeper from there.

Rob McNealy 2:17
Well, I think that’s a lot how a lot of us kind of get started with this. I actually haven’t been in crypto that long. And people always like how long you been in here? Like two years, two and a half years or like, well, how long is your old your project? Two years. So we kind of just like jumped right in. But one of the things that I kind of interesting is your app. And I have been like glued to this thing, like every day, like I used to go to like coin market cap and coin Gecko and keep hitting refresh and refresh. And I don’t even go there anymore. I go to lunar crush. So let’s talk about lunar crash. What is lunar crash and why am I personally so addicted to it?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 3:01
Well, first off, thank you, that’s a huge compliment. I appreciate that. And you know that, you know, the kind of the addictiveness a little bit is is the way we kind of design this and the way we think about, you know, experience and people coming onto our site and looking at everything is we’re very focused on that design and, and getting people to understand what’s happening very easily, even for people that aren’t into the crypto space yet, but are kind of, you know, like, we’d like to say crypto curious. And they’re starting to dive in, we wanted it to be simple. And inherently the market is our market in this space is very community driven. And a lot of these projects that, you know, especially in the all coin, they’re very, it’s kind of tribal, and people out there posting and they’re talking about what’s happening in the community. And, you know, we capture that, you know, and we’re looking at across the entire market, we’re looking at things like Twitter, Reddit, any sort of news URL that’s out there any link and we’re pulling all that together, and so your You’re really feeling what’s happening in real time when you’re when you’re on our site and you’re in your understanding, not just Bitcoin but everything else and what the community is saying at this exact moment. And so it’s a really amazing kind of feeling to get out there and really kind of see the heart and the pulse of the market. And I think it’s what people have kind of been waiting for it for a while.

Rob McNealy 4:21
Well, I agree with that. And not only do you have like, you know, normal, you know, statistics about and, you know, measurements about what a coin might be doing from a price perspective and things like that. But you’re pulling in all these measurements about in metrics about what the community is saying almost like sentiment and engagement, that kind of monitoring and And to me, that’s pretty fascinating. What what what made you think to do that, no one else is doing it that I’m seeing out there. So yeah, why go there?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 4:54
Well, you know, we look at when you look at kind of the stock markets, and you look at equities, and you Look at what drives value and the prices of these of these things. It’s it’s really earnings. You know, obviously there’s speculative, you know, you can look at Tesla and what’s happening right now. And, you know, as we record this February 4 2020, it’s kind of parabolic right now, and it’s moving. And that’s, that’s speculation, and it’s, it’s about the future growth of that company. And that’s what’s driving the value. And, but when you’re looking at the broader when we’re talking stock market, its earnings. I mean, it’s literally earnings beats over time is really what pushes these stocks up over time. And that’s why those big companies are so focused on that, where crypto is, is not like that. Its supply and demand driven. What is the social discourse that’s happening? Who’s talking about it? How are the communities being grown, it’s very different. And so you know, when we’re, we wanted to look at what the community is saying we wanted to see it in real time, and we wanted to put it, you know, over time, and you kind of see it on our site as more of a graphical time series representation and so you’re really seen it One place, you know, how is how did the, you know, the tehsils community do over the last two months? Is it growing? Is it shrinking? You know, when you’re looking at maybe some projects that are a little bit smaller that are up and coming, and you get a tip from a friend and you’re like, hey, check this project out, you know, you’re going to know real fast, whether or not that’s kind of a viable project? Or is it kind of the beginning or the end of it? By looking at our site?

Rob McNealy 6:24
So how did you come up with some of these algorithms are the best guests or did you benchmark against something? Because you got some interesting, you know, analysis that you have that, you know, these algorithms that are built into it? Where did that come from?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 6:38
Which ones are you talking about specifically?

Rob McNealy 6:42
I don’t have it up in front of me now. See, now you’re catching me off guard. I’m gonna have to like look it up. Like…

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 6:48
Like, so we have a couple of proprietary metrics that we’ve designed. One’s called the galaxy score, and the other one’s called vault rank.

Rob McNealy 6:54
That’s it right there. See you called it that was the one I didn’t know the name of it. So yes, that’s The Galaxy score that was it was on the top of my, my, my tongue there.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 7:05
Yeah, we’ve got a very space themed over here. But so galaxy score I can start with first and, you know, we wanted to kind of create a metric and it’s it’s a real time metric and we’re looking at things that are coming in constantly we’re not, you know, we’re not Moody’s you know, or s&p out here and saying that, you know, it’s a by rating or, you know, it’s a, you know, from a B to A B plus, or whatever it is, and, you know, over the next couple of months, this is what’s going to happen, we, you know, crypto moves too quick for that. And so, with galaxy score, we’re looking at each individual project, and we’re looking at it’s a performance against itself over time. And so we’re looking at things like we’re doing some technical analysis and some price, you know, analysis on each project, but then we’re also incorporating that projects community and the social that has happened around that project and how quickly it’s happening. And so, galaxy score, you know, like, I like to say it’s kind of like coffee. More advanced traders only where, you know, that’s going to move pretty rapidly. And so we’ve got people like, you know, bot traders, and we’ve got, you know, professional traders and people that are using that to look in real time at what’s happening. And so it’s, you know, zero to 100 score and you know, 100 would be the best. And so it means that there’s a lot of kind of social that’s happening at that moment, along with Bryce. And then the other one is called alt rank. And so alt rank is looking at a project’s performance against the rest of the market. And so it’s ranking everything from a one to you know, I think, right now, we’ve got about 1700 that we’re looking at across the entire market. And so we’re pulling in and saying, hey, what is, you know, a theory of price versus something like Bitcoin over time? And is it beating that is it losing against that? And then what is the kind of the social that’s happening at the same time, and so when you kind of put all that in correlate it together, you really get this kind of cool understanding of the market and so at any given time, time if you’re looking at lunar crash and you go to our markets page, and you’re seeing things, you know, ranked one to 25 that means that something’s happening right now. Prices moving, socialist moving, things are happening, volume is high market volume is high. And it’s somewhere as a trader or someone that’s looking at the market, you should really be paying attention to that.

Rob McNealy 9:18
So I’m looking at the you know, I’m bias. I’m looking at the Tusk page on lunar crash. So my Galaxy score for our project went down since yesterday. It was in the 50s yesterday, which said neutral but now it’s down and it says bearish. So what did we do that went from neutral yesterday to bearish today on the galaxy’s score for task.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 9:38
I’m not looking at it right here. But, you know, my guess would be that, you know, if there was a decline in market volume, or if there was a decline in price, correlated with also some social volume that’s going down then, at least at this moment, you know, in the galaxy scores updating continuously, that it’s a little bit lower now. You know, if there’s some buys that come through at the Some social action that happens if things start to kind of move, that galaxy score is going to jump pretty quickly. And so, you know, a move from something like in the 40s to something in the 80s, per se is gonna, that should be a blip on the radar to say that something’s happening with with Tusk.

Rob McNealy 10:15
Gotcha. So and I know, we didn’t have any volume yesterday, because we’re still new, and we’re only on one exchange, and, but I’m just curious on how, you know, I’m looking at my own stuff. So, but are all drank here says we’re 864 out of 2046. So, it’s got a little trophy thing, what does that mean?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 10:33
So 864 I mean, you know, again, this is this is looking at test performance against Bitcoin. So if it’s underperforming against something like Bitcoin, and then also, you know, maybe social volume or social engagement is is lower than the alt rank is going to kind of rank there but, you know, hey, 864 to 2000 you know, you’re still better than than 50%. But, you know, if if test starts to outperform bit coin and there starts to be some social that’s happening in real time, then you would see that rank move up really quickly. And, you know, I just want to caveat that we also put we as also assign an alt rank to Bitcoin. And the way that you could kind of look at that, look at that is if Bitcoin is rallying and is the number one all coin, our alt rank and lunar garage, it means that you know, you you might want to be in Bitcoin right now, because there’s rally happening, things are moving.

Rob McNealy 11:27
So there’s another section that says about the task. It’s over on the right side where it’s about the Messari. The Messari section, sorry.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 11:39
Yep.

Rob McNealy 11:40
So with is that section, we don’t have anything there. How would I get stuff there?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 11:44
So we, you know, we’re focused at Luna crush on all the social and the real time data, and then we’re partnering and we utilize miscarries data for some of the more about section I think mizar does an amazing job of kind of aggregating kind of the you know, more long Form kind of project oriented data around the why and what’s happening. And so, you know, they we pull in some of their data to kind of showcase on our site, if people want to kind of dive more into the, you know, who are the some of the founders of the project, you know, what is the, you know, what’s the blockchain? Like? What’s the out of their algorithm? Like, how is it working? And so they’re, they’re kind of focused on that. And so we pull in the data from there to, to kind of showcase on our site because they do such a good job.

Rob McNealy 12:27
So we need to get on their radar, if we want that box filled. So it also says here that our social sentiment is 60% of 3.3%, then bullish, so that’s a good thing right? Under the alt right box.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 12:43
Social sentiment, you’re saying?

Rob McNealy 12:45
Yeah, that’s right under the alt rank box,

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 12:48
Yep. Yep. So social sentiment, anything that is, you know, probably over 50%, we start to kind of categorize as more of a bullish and so we’re looking at some of the some of the data that’s out there, and You know, we’ve actually trained our own machine learning to look at, specifically crypto language out there in the web. And so, you know, when people talk about different projects in our space, you know, they, they speak about it differently, you know, when someone says, whether they’re right or wrong, that you know, monero is going to the moon. That’s a bullish sentiment. But, you know, a traditionally trained library is not going to pick that up. And so we’ve actually gone in and as the data comes in, we’re training it and we’re looking at it specifically and kind of hand tailoring all the data to understand, you know, what is the sentiment across some of this?

Rob McNealy 13:37
So it’s not just hashtags, you’re looking at the whole key words and different terms and how they’re used in conjunction with other maybe adjectives or things like that.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 13:47
Yeah, I mean, we’re looking at you know, any news that’s out there or any, any social that’s out there, and if there’s links that are posted within that, we’re kind of going in spidering that and looking at the different articles and trying to figure out, you know, was this was this meant to be Something that was a more positive or more as more of a negative occurrence.

Rob McNealy 14:05
So where do you see this would apply to other assets? Perhaps even like So you mentioned earlier with like Tesla, it seems like it’d be really interesting now to see some of the sentiment around Tesla, because everybody seems to be phone via phone going around it right now. Do you think this would apply in the same way to traditional assets like that?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 14:26
Man, I mean, the FOMO is so high in Tesla, I don’t think you even need ludicrous to identify the sentiment on that one. But yes, I mean, in in a short answer would be that, yes, absolutely. We can take in and pull in kind of traditional asset classes and look at it, our focus has, you know, we’re passionate about the crypto space and we want it to grow and we’re very focused on it. And so our, you know, our roadmap right now, at least for the foreseeable future is focused on cryptocurrency and we want to see this space grow and we want to see the you know, the people and the projects and the company’s growing So we’re completely focused on growing and, and maintain our space here.

Rob McNealy 15:05
So how are you guys funded? How did you guys? Are you bootstrapping this? Or did you get some VC money?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 15:11
We we originally bootstrapped this thing from the beginning. You know, we were, you know, like, like anyone else you want to build something from scratch and you want it, want it to be yours, and so we bootstrapped it. We did. In 2019. We joined a tech stars program, so I’m not sure if any of your listeners know but tech stars is, you know, one of the you know, best accelerator startup accelerator.

Rob McNealy 15:36
David Cohen.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 15:37
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So tech stars. We joined the LA program here and did that from July to October. And then we have, you know, some other some other partnerships with some local venture capitalists here in in Los Angeles. One is Draper Goran home. So they just founded new venture firm called Jake record home, which is Tim Draper, along Goran and Joseph home here who are kind of local, well known kind of entrepreneurs in the blockchain space.

Rob McNealy 16:11
So what is your revenue model? How you gonna make money with this?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 16:16
Well, right now we’re just growing our business and getting as many people to use it as humanly possible. We’re focused on user growth and and getting this out to the community. Right now. It’s free to get into lunar crash login and kind of see what’s happening on there. We also have an API and and we’re very shortly going to be coming out with a real time API. So anyone that’s, you know, a traitor, anyone that’s a little bit more advanced quant funds that are out there. We’re excited to partner with them and see kind of how they want to utilize some of the data. And so we’re just trying to understand the marketplace right now and kind of be out there and see where we have the where we have the best fit.

Rob McNealy 16:55
I think that’s really good, the way you’re kind of pulling the data together in a very visual way. And I think with crypto, that’s been such a problem. And I think it’s, I think it’s part of the the fact that so much of crypto is just developer LED and which is, you know, a hardcore command line kind of community, right. And so I think a lot of these guys out there and what as far as the developers go, they just don’t really think of UI and graphical user interfaces of things that important sometimes, or at least they, you know, underscore or plug down play. You know how important that is. But the one thing that I like what you’re doing, because I’m a very visual person, but visual representations of data can present patterns, that in trends that you cannot see with just normal tablature type of data scenarios. And I think that’s why you’re going to be successful with this because you’re lightyears ahead on your UI UX, compared to anything else that I’m seeing in crypto right now. And I’m excited It about where this is going. Because to me, this is how you get to adoption in because you’re recognizing, at least it seems like you’re recognizing how the design element is important here.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 18:12
Appreciate that, yeah, we spend a lot of time and, you know, a lot of thought and strategy and, you know, just going through and trying to put ourselves in our users shoes. And, you know, we, you know, I think it’s like when we went to one of those kind of first block stack summits at like, the Computer History Museum a couple years ago, and, you know, we were looking around at some of the different projects and we just kind of said to ourselves, it was like, you know, we need to focus on design and we need to focus on usability. You know, and it’s such a, you know, a slight usability change in any industry can have a profound effect. You know, look at look at Uber, you know, taxis existed, and, you know, people didn’t take them and it was because they didn’t want to call didn’t know who to call, they didn’t want to pay, they didn’t have cash. And so they felt bad to get into a cab and not pay and they get yelled at. And, you know, the simple, you know, design change of, you know, now I just put my credit card in and it shows up and I can, it’s really cool, I see it coming on this little map. That’s a, that’s an extremely, you know, amazing design disruption. And it’s simple. And so I think with the crypto, it’s the same thing where, you know, you’ve got these, these blockchains, and you’ve got these projects out there. And, you know, I think coin base has done an amazing job, you know, kind of building that first kind of use use case out and that on ramp that she had on ramp especially in the US. And now it’s kind of opening the door to these other tools that are out there and getting people deeper. And now it’s not just a professional trader that’s going to be on here. It’s going to be people that are a little bit more novice that don’t want to be intimidated. And so if you’re not focused on you know, helping people understand very simply how some of this stuff works, then it’s Not gonna it’s not going to work. And, you know, even when we originally started, it was, you know, we had 40 different charts on a page. And it was, you know, infinite scroll, and it just kept going and going, and it wasn’t working. And it’s not until you kind of simplify things and make it make it easy it is to where people start actually using it and understanding.

Rob McNealy 20:19
Well, it’s kind of funny the way even web design has changed over the past, you know, five years, 10 years ago, you’re trying to keep everything above the fold. And then I don’t know what happened because I stopped doing web development A long time ago, and then all of a sudden, now everything’s infinite scroll. And I’m like, didn’t we try to keep everything above the fold for a reason where people didn’t have to scroll for usability. So I don’t know what changed there. But it seems to me that usability is still important and you want to make people have to work the least amount when they’re using your site to get around. And I think you do that and I really do like the fact that you spent so much time in design and I think that is going to make this very Very useful. And it can’t believe that, you know, some of the big players as far as the trackers go, how awful their UI czar or how primitive they are. From the design standpoint, considering how much some of these trackers are bringing in revenue, you think they could bring in some design folks and fix that, but maybe they need to bring you in to fix it for them. Joe, where can people find out more about your project?

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 21:28
Linda crush calm is the easiest way. You can also find us on Twitter, we’re really active on Twitter. It’s just at Luna crush. We’re posting you know, all sorts of insights all day, we have a coin of the day that we post on each day. And that’s kind of our way to get people in and get people understanding the data for free. So that I would say go to Luna crush calm or just follow us at at Luna crush.

Rob McNealy 21:52
So thank you so much. And I do appreciate you coming on the show today. And I wish you all the luck in the future.

Joe Vezzani – Lunar Crush 21:58
And thank you my man. Appreciate it.

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Paul McNeal – The Crypto Curator Transcript

Paul McNealy - The Crypto Curator

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Today I am talking to Paul McNeal. He is The Crypto Curator and an evangelist about Bitcoin. We’ve been connected on social media for some time now and I find his tweets are very interesting and sometimes even a little bit controversial. So I’d like to welcome the show. How are you today, Paul?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I’m doing well. How are you?

Rob McNealy
Good. What’s going on today?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, you know, it’s just another wonderful day in the world of Bitcoin.

Rob McNealy
Seems like every day something’s happening in Bitcoin and crypto in general. So for kind of jump into all that stuff. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into crypto

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Sure, um, well, I won’t go back too far but I served in the military for 10 years, served onboard submarines, three of them enjoyed that left that and then I went to work for the government as a government contractor did that for a little bit left that went and started a business with a friend of mine. That’s what got me into the world of entrepreneurship. built that with him for a little while, then made an exit out of that and then started selling it consulting and it was during IT consulting where I learned about Bitcoin Of course it was across Twitter believe it was trace Mayor that I came across and after hearing about it I was just fascinated and so I kept following kept following it and the more you follow it The deeper the down the rabbit hole you go. And so after that I was hooked.

Rob McNealy
So did you when you were working in submarines did you work with cryptography in any way?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Actually, I did. I was a submarine radium and onboard three nuclear power subs and as a radium in our communications person we encrypted All of our communication so little different than the crypto most people here today in Bitcoin but as these little strips of pieces of paper that we would pull through devices that would encrypt the communication. And so I was familiar with encryption from that perspective when I was in the military.

Rob McNealy
So would you say the most interesting thing about crypto is for you personally?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, the most interesting thing I found about it is and I had come across this actually didn’t realize it back in the day when PGP first came around and understanding how to do the PGP on email and things like that. But what I’ve come to find out and learn about and that I appreciate is that it allows us to have control over our information and our communication, which in today’s world, because it is so much of it is done online. There’s a need a deep need for that type of encryption privacy. So I’ve learned that you know, it allows me to take control back over my information.

Rob McNealy
And you know, you’ve been doing some interesting experiments with that recently yourself. And you and I talked about this a little bit before, you know, off the air. But you’ve recently done something very interesting that I can’t fathom how you’re doing it. So tell us a little bit about that.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yes. So it happened late, late last year, a couple months before the year ended, I got to paying attention to just my normal activities online and things and I was noticing that I was communicating more on messaging platforms than I was email, I would check in on emails and I have like three or four email accounts and I’ve logged in and I was delete, delete, delete, delete, and I was like, why am I even logging an email anymore? And then it dawned on me and it’s probably some back subliminal messaging I Alex machine ski is voices in my head. And he was talking about doing for money, what he did for voice Voice over IP money becoming money over IP, and then he used the term streaming money and then I got to thinking, wow, streaming communication. And I was like, why are we still using email when we could be using messaging. And so I’ve made the decision to stop using email. And then at 2020. I said, I don’t want to use email at all I really want to check in. I just want to use messaging. So I’ve been in that process right now.

Rob McNealy
So how’s it going so far?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
So far, there are bumps, I learned a big bump, and I found it interesting. And again, this is what really sets off the spidey senses for you can’t have a mobile device without an email. I tried deleting my Gmail off my Android phone and it went berserk and I was like, whoa, wait a minute. So I’m starting to find out now same thing goes for iPhone. I’m certain if you were to pull your Apple ID your which is your email address away from your phone. I think your phone would not allow you to do certain things. So I’m starting to find that that’s going to be a major hurdle in completely disconnecting those accounts, so I can’t complain. Disconnect mom to check them, but I can’t disconnect them for that reason.

Rob McNealy
Well, I can tell you the one Apple device that I currently still have when I don’t have that user ID and and it freaks out. So yeah, I think you’re right on that. There is a new phone supposedly coming out, I think pretty soon Have you heard of it called the Libra phone. And it’s a new, completely supposedly privacy oriented type of hardware device that’s supposed to be coming out on the market. And I’m actually very interested in some of that new technology where people are allowing people to, you know, create devices that are taking away that power back from you know, basically it’s Google and Apple at this point. And so it’s something I’m very interested in. And though I don’t understand how you can completely delete yourself from email because I would have a very difficult time with it. I can tell you I’ve recently gone through this purging process. process where I noticed just in the last six weeks or so I started paying attention to my ad my own, you know mailboxes in some of my accounts. And I had over 50,000 emails that I deleted out of my various email accounts. And now I’m going through this process where I’m unsubscribing to every single mailing list that I’m on and my inbox is away quiet or now, and not as annoying because I was getting I was getting about 100 different messages a day that weren’t spam. But they were updates from this mailing list to that mailing list, and it did start becoming overwhelming to me. And so I can understand where you’re coming from with this wanting to delete email altogether, because I swear if I think I could get rid of that I would.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, I think a lot of people would have talked to a lot of people and they’ve told me the same thing, and I do you know, I’m I’m not trying to pretend like this is going to be an easy process because this is going to be difficult. Because I was talking to a friend of mine, he has a system that he uses emails and it follows emails, high retrieves information, his whole workflow is built around and I get it, right, mine is a little bit easier because I’m an independent guy work for myself, I don’t have to, and I don’t per se have clients. So I found that most people that I interact with, are open to interacting on these messaging platforms via email. So I found though a lot of people when I tell them not using email, and can you use one of the messaging platforms, most people have them already. So it’s not a big stretch for me to ask them to communicate via telegram or a messenger or, you know, whatever the platform is.

Rob McNealy
Have you found one particular messaging app that at least gives you more control over your privacy than say over something offered by Facebook or Google?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, there’s three of them in particular, the fourth ones, you have to do a trick. So key based IO, which A lot of people, they check it out. I know it’s another platform, but it’s it’s a cross between like a slack, a telegram and a Venmo. That messaging app allows me to do text, voice or even video and I began to use that platform a lot. And that’s a blockchain based platform, completely decentralized. It does have a central authority that built the platform, but it is private and all the information is yours. signal is another great one. That one is actually endorsed by Edward Snowden. And that one doesn’t have any back doors to the NSA. It’s actually not based in the US is based in Sweden, I believe are Switzerland, sorry that Sweden, Switzerland. And then wire is another and then telegram and of course telegram is private has encryption, but you have to do a secret chat in order for it to be completely encrypted from NSA.

Rob McNealy
Well, I’m on multiple of the platforms that you just mentioned before and I am kind of looking at some of the other different platforms that I’m not using right now what I find the problem is, is that is not just me, if I move over, I got to take a whole lot of other people with me to get on one platform and, and you know, running, you know, or at least helping run now, a crypto project, you kind of have to be in the same place, you got to get kind of a critical mass of people and you gotta like, hey, drive them here and say, Hey, we’re all on five different platforms. Now you gotta sign up for all five of these platforms, it kind of gets a little unruly. So I’m not sure the best way at this point to like, deal with all of that. But we are kind of looking at different options that are a little more secure.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I agree. And that is going to be one of the headaches as we move forward. And I’m wondering if someone’s going to build some type of a standard that allows you to have a unified platform that allows you to do and pull in all the other ones. I’m trying to think back. I remember back in the day with the web and when the web first started, people would build these platforms that you could plug several different things into one and eight pulls it all into one. So I don’t know if we’re going to see that with communication, but it is going to be an issue with some people been on so many different platforms.

Rob McNealy
Well, there was one called I think back in the day from the social media side of things called friendfeed. And what ultimately happened they got bought out and they kind of killed it. But one of the things that it was the point of it was that it was trying to consolidate all the feeds from the different social media accounts in one place. Because everybody’s got multiple footprints right? But what ultimately killed that I think that concept of these you know, social media aggregators is that all the platforms didn’t want to give API access the the platforms want people on their platform, they want to hold those eyeballs because their their revenue models are dependent on those eyeballs staying on their platforms. So in one thing and or one perspective, it’s a really great idea to maybe open those API’s up and allow people to, you know, be off your platform, but On the other hand, they don’t want to give up that power. So I think it’s interesting going forward where these things will end up panning out. You know, in social media, at least network effects are real thing. There’s all sorts of alternative meet, you know, there’s all sorts of alternative platforms out there for all the different social media platforms. But none of them are really getting any traction, just from the standpoint is that the eyeballs aren’t there? And what do you think about that? Where do you think the future is going to be with these different platforms and the way the social media world and tech world has treated privacy and free speech? issues like that?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, you know, I definitely agree with you. That’s part of the challenge. Everybody wants access. Now, what I think could change that is if we do shift to platforms, and unfortunately I mentioned this earlier in the periscope, the idea on Twitter, free has really damaged us because things are free. We Use them. And we don’t realize free doesn’t mean free free means free for you to use, but you’re doing it at a price. And that price that you’re paying currently is much higher than it would be if you paid dollars for it. So unfortunately, I think these platforms will have to monetize by charging people to use them. And I think that’s going to help with some of the consolidation of which platforms people choose to use. But in addition to that, I think once we do that, then hopefully we can get strong enough encryption put in place that if you’re interacting with these platforms, those platforms really don’t care if you stay on their platform, because you’re either paying for it, but they’re really not getting access to any of your information. Anyway, the only reason people want you on their platform so they can monetize it, by your being free. But if it’s not free, and they’re paying and you’re paying to use it, it really doesn’t matter at that point, I’m assuming.

Rob McNealy
I think there’s going to be a tipping point probably in the next five years. About people wanting to either have more control over their data, their privacy, but I think there’s going to be more of a push, especially from social media content creators about getting bigger revenue shares. And I think that’s going to open up. I think it’s going to open up an opportunity, as the big tech giants keep basically cutting out and ostracizing and alienating certain communities on their platforms, and D monetizing people that will start putting pushing more and more people to other platforms. And I think there’s going to be a point where the tech industry in Silicon Valley basically makes itself irrelevant. If they keep going in the direction they’re going right now, what do you think?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, exactly. And, and I think we’re going to see and I’m early on this, but I think that Facebook has done a good job at putting its tentacles in several areas, and it’s smart for them because that means that they have a better chance of surviving. Facebook, I’ve noticed I’m moving myself off of Facebook, I sent out messages to my entire network at about like 1400. Folks, most of those people I hadn’t really interacted with in a long time. And I told him I had several criteria for people that I would unfriend and get rid of people that have I hadn’t spoken to you in over a year, right. And that means literally haven’t spoken to you on the phone in person a message I like or something, then you were gone because it didn’t make any sense. And I kept whittling that down. Once I got down to the core, I sent them all a message says, Hey, listen, I’m going to stop using Facebook in 2020. But here’s how you can get in contact with me. Here’s my phone number. And I’ll be on these other platforms if you like to communicate. I think you’re going to see these large platforms like a Google like Facebook slowly dwindle down and usage because people will wake up hopefully more to privacy and that or they will have to try to try and shift their models and trying to shift that model from where they are now can be very hard to So it’s going to be interesting. I don’t have any definitive, but I know for myself and I know many others are slowly making that transition off of some of these platforms. And if that continues, it’ll be a slow progression, but I think they’ll have to change.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I don’t think it’s going to be abrupt. Just because the networking effect and the inertia that they have, it’s going to take time. What I do think, though, is that when they get they’re so locked into having that power, that centralized control, and I view it a lot like government, these big massive corporations, once they go down a path, they won’t stop even though they know what they’re doing isn’t going to last they can see the handwriting on the wall, but because of their inertia, and they’re kind of blinded almost by it, that they won’t adapt. And and I believe over time, it will be the downfall of a lot of those large mega corporations and it won’t be overnight. It They’ll be, you know, they’ll lose a different community here in another community there. And, and, and they’ll just kind of kind of dwindled down to my space at some point. You know, it’s just I don’t think it’s going to be abrupt. It but I do think it’s going to happen. And I think it’s like this. You know, you’ve seen recently, you know, jack Dorsey from Twitter talking about how he wants to create, you know, some kind of standard, and he wants to pick and choose who’s on this little, you know, basically, committee project. And I tell people look, if he wanted to make Twitter for a bastion of free space or free speech, he would do it in a minute. He could he has the power to do that. Now, the problem is, he has no incentive to do it. And in fact, I don’t believe that people give up power willingly, typically. And I think for things like Twitter or some of these other platforms for them to adapt, they have to give up power. But I think ultimately, if they are not willing to give up our they’re not going to survive.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Correct, and I think jack Dorsey is a great example. Because what he’s currently doing and if he is successful, and I think he’s forward thinking enough that he created his square crypto group, and that they want to work on Bitcoin, and he’s trying to move into the decentralized realm, he will definitely be ahead of the pack. And I think we’re going to see the rest of these big behemoths have to make the same type of a shift. It is definitely going to be tricky for them to do so. And what you said is true. Are people willing to give up power? That’s something that spans across everything, and I agree with you, people are not willing to give up power. But I think that, unfortunately, the more they try to hold on to that power, the more they’re going to lose it. The way you keep power is that you got to give it away. If you don’t give it away, you will lose it.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I think that’s going to be an issue and it’ll be interesting to see how it pans out and it’ll be also in Interesting to see how the crypto space pans out long term. You know, I’m not a maximalist on any project. I’m a maximalist on my project, from the standpoint that I really believe in what I’m working on. But I think it’s going to be interesting how things shift out in crypto over the next couple of years. I think that the big players in crypto, there’s a good shot that a lot of the big players currently are going to lose their standing over the next couple of years because I think how people are going to evaluate crypto products is going to change dramatically.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, you know, that’s interesting. I haven’t done it. I probably should have done it before this call but I think it was maybe last year middle of last year. I was curious, I said, I want to know and I’m sure you might have heard this website is called wayback machine. You go back in time. So I did that with coin market cap and I was shocked to find four assets remain at the top. That’s 10 years for assets remain the top some of these projects I agree with Few they won’t but I’m seeing that even through time and that’s years upon years upon years they remain. bitcoins remain number one a theorem for the most part remains number two repple remains number three there was one point where ripple flipped a theorem, but it was briefly and then number four of course now it’s be cash or at the time and be cash wasn’t in existence I forget, which was like the main one that stayed number four, but the Litecoin

Rob McNealy
Hmm, I think it was like Litecoin.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I thank you. Thank you. You’re absolutely right. It was like when Litecoin has now shifted because of tether and because of the cash those two supplanted like coin into like coins. But But yeah, I mean, it’s so some of these other projects. And even if we look at the top 10 and I might even do that after this call. Go back and look at the top 10 take a screenshot and see where those assets are. I tell somebody if the project’s have a pretty solid team, if they have a good development of the actual product. And they’ve started to get adoption, I think those projects will remain. But if you have zero adoption, your product is not really even built out and your team is feres, you’re not going to stay.

Rob McNealy
I think going forward, what we’re going to find is the kryptos that actually have customers. And what I mean by customers is not what most people mean when they say users. I’m a heretic when it comes to crypto because I don’t believe that investors are users. And most of the people in the big project say, well, we have this many users and I’m like, No, you don’t you have investors, you have speculators. And guess what, right now? No, kryptos actually have people really in any large amounts, people using their crypto for buying and selling goods or services, any of them not Bitcoin, Litecoin none of them. And to me, whoever cracks that nut, whoever gets it, their crypto actually being used for buying and selling goods and services will unleash on massive change in how crypto products are evaluated. And I believe when that happens, the kryptos that actually have customers are the ones are going to be winning.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I agree. I can’t I can’t. I was like you said, No, no mass adoption. But there are several projects where people do use them here in the US, probably not much around the world in developing countries. I think they do dash has got a very user user user base down in Venezuela. I think they’ve done some projects there. I know the Iota project is working. And I know some big auto manufacturers are beginning to use Iota with their cars. And I think we’re going to see the automobile industry become one of the leading adopters of digital assets because they’re going to use it for car to car payment. And that’s being built out and I think we’re going to start to see some adoption in that going forward. So but I agree with you, until you get actual customers using it paying with it. You can forget it. It’s not

Rob McNealy
Yeah, yeah, that’s what’s going to happen and and i look at projects not even because of their market cap, though most people look at market cap is the number one indicator of how successful project is. And unfortunately, market cap can change very rapidly, because it’s all based on emotion. It’s not being based on fundamentals. And I think things are going to change a lot in the next two years in crypto. That’s what I take. So that’s my take. And I think what you’re going to see is a lot of these crypto products, we still that we’re part of that Ico kind of nonsense from two years ago, there’s still a lot of those Ico tokens that are dead that are still on the top 100 coin market cap. And you start going down the list of these projects, there’s still a lot of dead tokens, essentially, are dead projects still all over the trackers that still have large market caps, but they’re completely dead. And I think what’s going to end up happening is at some point, someone’s going to have to stick a fork in and say it’s done, get it off the list. And that’s going to happened at some point. But I think the projects that customers that are actually using buying and selling goods or services are going to, they’re going to shatter and skyrocket when people start going, Hey, you know what? having actual people using this for its intended purpose is kind of a big deal and kind of important, why we look at that. And I, you know, I was looking down the list of some big projects recently, I do a lot of research and other projects. Because I want to know, what makes them tick. Why are they considered popular when they don’t even have customers? And it’s interesting, if you go look at almost every major project out there, they don’t have anybody in a way on the team that can get out there project and they’re not even structured to sales, marketing or business development. None of them. There’s pretty much none of you look at any of the team pages on the top 100 Top 200 a queen market cap or queen Gecko and look at the team pages for the projects and show me how many people are on that team. have sales, marketing, business development, not even authority, but that’s their, that’s their task. And they don’t have it. So tell me this, I don’t believe as as an entrepreneur and someone who’s done a lot of sales and business development marketing, I don’t believe you’re going to get mass adoption of any crypto unless you have a marketing business development strategy to put your crypto in the hands of end users.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yep. Again, I would I would agree with you the only thing that I think that might change that might alter that is the geopolitical area and the economy, the global economy. I think those two things if things heat up and we saw a little bit of it with Bitcoin, but again, it’s still speculation. It’s not anything about adoption. But I think that if there comes a point to where privacy is really again, being hampered and people are looking for a way out and they’re looking for escape out, they will adopt these techniques. Jeez to help them and I watched to their watched one interview and listen to another one. The CEO of beam with Jeffrey from uptrend and bad crypto with fluffy pony. And again, they’re talking about privacy in these privacy coins. Is there a true application for them other than nefarious reasons? And right now today, like I said, No, but if you let things blow up on the geopolitical stage, or you let the economy begin to really tank hard, that I think we might see some adoption.

Rob McNealy
Well, I would say that privacy is a very big deal. And it will be a very big deal when people start realizing that it’s easy to figure out how much someone how much money someone has, or if you’re a retailer how much money your competitor and your competitor has. So I absolutely think that privacy coins will be an issue and they’re not an issue now, because no one’s actually using them. And or using crypto and I would say the same thing goes for taxes. I think the Number one objective retailers will have when it comes to accepting crypto will be the tax implications and the accounting nightmare associated with the currently under US law. However, you don’t hear that objection really being brought up very much because no one’s accepting crypto. Yet it’s not happening. And I can tell you, I used to own brick and mortar store, I’ve set up my own point of sale. And I can tell you, I understand the accounting and the tax nightmare of dealing with it. And I can tell you, that will be one of the biggest objectives or objections that retailers have, but you don’t hear that complaint out there because people aren’t using crypto yet. And and I know that’s a heretic, or heretical statement that I’m making, but it’s a fact. And I think once the retailer’s start getting wind of understanding how much of a pain in the ass it is, they’re not going to want to use it unless crypto solves a really, really big problem. For them, and for most retailers, right now crypto does not solve a problem for them, it actually gives them a lot of problems.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Right? Now what will change the game, it’ll be interesting to see will be backed, right. So backed has a very robust roadmap that they are going to implement the first they’ve already implemented, which was the warehousing of digital assets. The next one, of course, there’s the options and the futures and the ETF features. And then after that, I think we will see them begin to shift their attention toward commerce, and that’s where the Starbucks and Microsoft their partnerships are going to be key. And what are they working on that they’re going to roll out? And I told people listen back was under the radar for 15 months. No one brings a word of that project. No one knew they were working on no one had been out of the blue. They came out and they said, we’re working on a platform that’s going to do XYZ and everyone was caught off guard by the people. been working on this for months, probably over a year now, on this Starbucks, Microsoft, whatever platform they’re going to roll out, we will hear an announcement come out soon, indicating that they’re going to roll out a actual product that will accept digital assets at Starbucks, and that I think will be a game changer.

Rob McNealy
I think it will, I think it will be too I think it’s going to be someone who’s actually engaging with retailers and create a situation or product or, you know, present crypto in a way to those retailers that it solves a problem for them, or they think they can make more money from it to overcome the problems associated with implementing crypto right now. And there’s very few projects out there that do that the way we structured today, we structured tossed around that principle to understand that if you’re going to onboard people for mass adoption, you’re going to have to have a sales component marketing component and a customer service component to help bring these people onto the platform. And you got to present crypto to the people where crypto solves a big problem for them. That’s the only place you’re going to get adoption. I don’t think it’s an accident or coincidence that mass adoption hasn’t happened. And the The fact is most crypto products are run by developers that hate sales, marketing, business development. And so to me, if your project is instruction to do those activities and embracing doing those activities, you’re not going to be successful even if your market cap has a lot of investors. I think that’s going to change over the next few years is that once some crypto star King actual customers, whatever those projects are going to quickly upset the apple cart when it comes to market cap.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yep. And you know, the news that they add, I found it interesting and and I think it was in Lw on the value that Daniel Whitmore that posted a tweet about Kelly lafleur. I find it very interesting. She’s now in Congress, and she’s now going to be head of the committee that actually deals with the CFTC and he Asked if that was a conflict of interest. Is that good for the crypto space or all of the above? I find it very interesting that they’ve allowed her Nick Kelly lafleur was the CEO of backed, and she gave up that title and gave it over to and I forgot the gentleman’s name that that replaced her. I know Adam White is going to become, I think President or CEO. But Adam white came from Coinbase. But the reality is, you’re putting some of that stature at the head of the committee that oversees the CFTC. Come on, seriously. I don’t know. I smell something cooking. I don’t know what’s cooking, but something’s cooking.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I think it’s going to be interesting in the United States, especially with the regulatory stuff that’s coming out. The good thing is where we’re going to be falling out in the as far as I can tell, by definition and the way we launch we’re got we’re going to be a commodity we’re not actually going to be considered and regulated as a crypto under what the CFTC and the SEC are coming up with four definitions and they’re defining the city. Based on basically how they were launched if something security or commodity or what have you. So it’ll it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out from a regulatory perspective. Right now, though, I think the IRS is a much bigger issue than the securities exchange commission when it comes to crypto. And again, that goes back to I don’t believe people are complaining about the head because it’s not creating the problem for most people, because most retailers don’t accept crypto yet. But I do believe that the IRS rules are a worse fit for digital assets than the SEC rules are.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
I agree, and that’s why the token taxonomy act is moving to Congress right now. And I think that once that gets moved to Congress, if it gets approved, and I think it has a good shot at getting approved, because I think there’s members of Congress that have an interest to make sure it gets approved, because they’re part of it as well. That has a de minimis rule that says that, hey, listen, you can spend six 700 bucks of crypto a day and you don’t have to report that as taxes. You can use it as Currency when that happens, like I actually had an interview last week, and I told them the exact same thing. They were like, why don’t you use crypto in your daily life? I’m like, because I’m not gonna pay the taxes on spending crypto makes no sense. But the moment that rule comes out and I can now use it, heck, I’ll use crypto to spend for everything. I’ll pay utilities with it, how buy things in the store with that I’ll do everything with it, because I can without getting taxed. But right now, you’re not going to tax me. You know, capital gains tax on crypto, my use on purposes doesn’t make sense.

Rob McNealy
Absolutely. And I think that’s something needs to be addressed. And what bothers me a little bit is that the organization’s these crypto projects that did illegal Icos and got a slap on the wrist, the ones that have the tremendous amount of money in the bank, right now, are not hiring the lobbyists to make this happen.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Right.

Rob McNealy
And that doesn’t make any sense to me if they really believe in the crypto future and they really believe that these things will happen. Do they can spend a few minutes bucks in get every vote, they need to pass some legislation, like the token taxonomy act, but you’re not seeing that. And that, to me is surprising, because those projects, the ones that have a lot to benefit, you know, if people, you know, can get the regulations change there, it will absolutely help adoption. But if you go look at even the biggest projects, they don’t have sales and marketing people, you know, go look at a theorem, who’s their sales and marketing people, they don’t have them. So, you know, they’re not really thinking about it. But the problem is, they’re not talking to customers. And ultimately, if you talk to customers like I do, where I go talk to retailers, because I view the retailer’s as our customer, and you go talk to those retailers about their pain points and the things that they are interested in or the things that they’re not interested in, you have a very clear picture of what you need to do with crypto to make it so those retailers will adopt it. And I don’t see any of that happening from the big major products out there like a theory of EOS or blockstream or any of those organizations.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, the only organization I think that might be putting the lobbying arm in place is the digital Chamber of Commerce. I think they published something maybe middle of last year, maybe early last year talking about putting in a lobbying arm and I don’t know if Queen center teamed them with them and coin base or whatever. But I know for a fact i think i think they did. I’ll look that up. But I think that the digital Chamber of Commerce has put in place a lobbying arm to work with Congress on this, but I’m not. I don’t know that for certain I think they’re, well.

Rob McNealy
I hope they do and I hope they deal with the IRS thing more so than the SEC thing. Because if you look at so far, all the people that are talking about crypto and the regulations, everything stemmed around securities offerings, rather than taxing and to me the taxing issues more important and far more important, and I’m, I’m not a securities attorney, but I’ve looked at a lot of securities laws and a lot of rules and regulations. And to me, the security last mostly fit, to be honest. And that’s why we launched the way we did. We didn’t Do an Ico we didn’t do a token sale. We never sold tokens or coins. We didn’t collect personal information when when people went to our faucets and got our supply, and we did so so we weren’t a security. And you know what, it only took me a couple weeks of reading up on things and talking to a few attorneys to figure out that the utility token thing was nonsense. And so, but the IRS, that’s a bigger problem, because I know a lot about taxes too, because I do a lot of my own bookkeeping and stuff. And so yeah, I think the tax thing is the much bigger problem. And I can tell you this, I’m reading right now. taxation and I don’t even understand how the miners deal with it, you know, we just set up block producers for task, and it gets it pays out, like every day a little bit, you know, and it’s like, oh, I don’t even want to deal with the taxes. I’m dealing with this because it’s a big thing. It’s a big pain and and then you get into retailers, and then trying to figure out all that kind of stuff with how the retailers have to track this stuff. That’s a big pain too. And so if you We’re not going and trying to hold the hand of a retailer and you want them to use your project. I just don’t see a doubt. I don’t see any desire for retailers to go through all the headache, because there’s no really no upside for, because for the most part, there’s not that many people that want to pay in crypto at this point, either.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
No, there’s not. And that is chicken with chicken in the egg situation. You know, I think if there are more places that they would and it was an tax on it, then you would be there. But at the same time, I think that if you know, if the users really there, then the retailers would be motivated to do it and the users not there. So chicken take

Rob McNealy
that. Absolutely. So what do you think’s going to happen by the end of 2020? What would be your big predictions for the industry going forward this year?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Yeah, couple of them. So of course price and everybody’s, you know, wondering what’s going to happen with price I think this having coming up in April of May. It’s going to have an impact and I think that impact will be like the two previous Things that we had, I think we will see a surge in the price of digital assets across the board. I think there will be an old season that will happen. And I think that that’s going to also push up. And I think bitcoins dominance, of course, is approaching 70%. But I think that we will see that equalize out. And I think it will lose dominance to some of the old coins moving up as this old season happens. So direct prices on it, who knows? I mean, I’ve seen now I’ll tell you because I collect all the news. And I look at all the news all the time, both technical analysis, price analysis, I think most people who are fair minded trying to look at this right, you know, getting back to all time highs 20 K, by the end of the year, reasonable. You know, maybe we’ll get to 4050 K, maybe Maybe, maybe not. Anything above that out of the out of the question, if you asked me. When you look at the technology itself, blockchain technology, I think you’re going to see a lot of development happen with a lot of the projects and the ones that I’m seeing again in the news all the time, they’re always there. And I even said, I know it will shoot me for your brain and stuff first. But Tron I’m telling you, it’s in the news every day. It’s not a day goes by my brief goes out that runs and I mentioned, tron chain link cardano I Oda. These projects are Ethereum is constantly changing. There was an article the other day about a theorem. Some of your largest enterprises are using a theorem. And actually one of them was talking about using the public chain instead of a private chain for a project. And so that goes again to show that I think it’s going to be like the internet and the internet. When they first came out. Everyone was all we’ve got to be having an intranet, and eventually that just dispelled and everybody was on the internet. I think the same things that happened with the public private within the Digital Asset space, I think you’re going to see a lot of people try to do these private chains, but eventually going to find out it’s nothing more than a glorified database. Less Move it all to the public chain, where there’s real security and yada, yada. Now you will need something like z k snarks for changing privacy and things like that. But I think that’s going to get solved. So projects will continue to develop, I think, to innovate and move toward the end of 2020. I think we’re going to be surprised at which projects take off.

Rob McNealy
Very cool. Paul, where can people find out more about you since they can’t email you?

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Well, my website, the crypto curator is the easiest way. And once you’re on the crypto curator, you have links to all the places whether I’m on Twitter or telegram, or YouTube or action on YouTube, key base, things like that. But yeah, if they get to my website, they can contact me all over the place.

Rob McNealy
Paul, thank you so much for coming on the show D I’ve enjoyed our chat.

Paul McNeal -The Crypto Curator
Hey, thanks, Rob. Thanks for having me on.

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Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer Transcript

Amina Motala - Cryptocurrency Influencer

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Today I am talking to Amina Mottola. She is an influencer in crypto and she’s up north. She’s from Snow Mexico, also known as Canada. So I’d like to welcome to the show Mina. How are you today?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
I am well all the way here from Snow Mexico.

Rob McNealy
I love snow Mexicans are some of my favorite peeps. I grew up in the Metro Detroit area. So we used to spend a lot of time in snow Mexico.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Nice, very nice.

Rob McNealy
Exactly. So tell us a little bit about yourself. You’ve been in crypto for a while. What kind of what’s haven’t gotten you into crypto and and what kind of things are you working on?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Yeah, quick story, my backstory. I loved Bitcoin many many years ago I used to search through the internet found a little documentary talked about Bitcoin and loved it. I saw the value in it wanted it right away. And I don’t know how early that was it was quite early, quite a few quite a few years ago. And I just couldn’t figure out how to buy it I really was quite new to like, as far as high tech went, I knew nothing. I could just function basics on my computer so I couldn’t figure out how to get it and I tried it even typed in how to buy bitcoin and just didn’t understand anything. So took a few years thought about an ATM machine that passed single mom very busy, went back to school very very busy just kept going on and on in 2017 I bought some Bitcoin and needed to learn a lot more became more to curious. And through that I ended up reaching out to the meetup community, started a meetup with somebody else and then ventured off on my own and started doing my own meetup for over two years now. So did it by weekly, not as much as bi weekly now just so busy with everything but yeah, so in through that I joined social media got connected with all kinds of people in the space in and traveling and conferences and building, you know, rapport and reporters and partnerships, and it’s been fun and exciting. So I love it. I really do.

Rob McNealy
So what part of Canada are your meetups held in?.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Yeah, so Ottawa, Ontario, which is the capital city of Canada.

Rob McNealy
I like Ottawa actually, you do many, many, many, many moons ago. I used to work in an industry and mana my clients was the RCMP. So okay, been to Ottawa.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Yes. Very nice. Did you kill in the winter?

Rob McNealy
You know, I didn’t get up to Nunavut or Iqaluit or in any of those places yeah I’ve definitely been to Canada in the wintertime and I think where I live in Salt Lake is about as far as North as I like to be in the wintertime at this point. Yeah so I can drive to the mountains I live right at the base of the mountain some but you know, I want to go into the cold I don’t like it cold that much. I like having I like the idea of having like two months of winter like.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Yeah, I agree with you. I think the winter just so long and it’s it’s such a process everyday living in it so that gets tiring on you and big and heated indoors for so long. Just tires you out. But I just saw recently just a quick side story. Talking about cold therapy and cold water and cold showers and things like that and embracing it. And I’ve been trying that and I’m starting to like it. And it really weird. energizing is really weird. But this is why I paint the ocean so I have a really nice view to to look at.

Rob McNealy
So we lived up in northeast Wyoming for two winters, right in the Black Hills, and we would heated we heated literally with a wood stove for two winters. And I said, that’s it. And up there, you literally have to heat like nine months of the year and no, no, not doing that, again, not doing that again. But I like skiing. I mean, that’s why we moved to Utah, actually. So we ski so that’s why we went to Salt Lake. I like so. Yeah, yeah. So but I like the fact that I can live in the valley. And it’s still pretty, I mean, it’s like in the 40s right now Fahrenheit, so it’s actually pretty nice and not too bad. I don’t like it when it’s negative five degrees every day. That’s just not pleasant for me. So you’ve been working on a few different things. So it sounds like this meetup has grown into other kinds of opportunities for you. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
So, uh, what my meetup Yeah, I mean, I really Actually I met a gentleman Jordan Santiago who started a an app called crowd zones which is for micro influencers. So that was really interesting. And I learned a lot through him. He’s pretty knowledgeable in the space and he’s still working on it. I think he’s going live with some part of it or something I’m not even sure I haven’t I’ve lost touch with him now but for February and it’s it’s all about micro influencing and social media and using blockchain as well. So that was really interesting learned a lot. I even got myself a desk at Innovation Center at a time for a little while while he was there, which is a really, I guess, had a quite a name for itself for high tech and government funded building actually. So things like that opportunities like that and just different events and venues and meeting interesting people through the meetup and, and then traveling and getting to know people like Bitcoin, Ben and traveling a lot, did a lot of his meetups and got To meet who I am going to be working with, as well is Dana blocky with coin flip. And they’re really cool coin flip is the ATM Bitcoin ATM machines and he is the second largest in the world. He has about 400 machines. And Daniel’s only 24 years old. So really, really young, energetic, intelligent entrepreneur. And I look forward to doing more work with him because we really want to bring up the machines up to Canada. So that’s, that’s the goal. And I want to assist him with that. So looking forward to doing to working on that further with him. And another project that came to light which I’m really excited about and its relationship that I built up since almost a year now with this person who’s brought me in to working with the corona family. And that is the corona games that they just launched. And I had read their press release last week. So it is an online gaming app with sports fantasy, and trivia, and they’ll be getting into blockchain tech and film production as well. So very excited to work with this family. It is the corona family that owned the beer company. So this is a completely new launch for them. And what’s great about it is there are big players in the in, you know, in their big corporation, they’re a household name. That will be they’ll actually be releasing the press release to the world and, you know, reaching the world’s population. So what’s nice about it is onboarding them into this app and then over time, they can learn about crypto currencies and blockchain so I see a great opportunity to help with adoption With Corona games, so I’m very excited, very excited to, to work with the social media and the marketing with them.

Rob McNealy
So with the corona games, are they going to be rolling up watching games immediately? Or is that something that they’re getting into later on?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
They will be doing so I can’t I did sign an NDA. I can’t say a whole lot at this point because they are just releasing one thing at a time I wish I could really, but they are going to start unveiling things as they go along. They do have a lot of things lined up really exciting and in in a very different way to they’re going to introduce gaming and trivia in a very new light in a different way that that we know of so and their prizes are, you know, things like paying tuitions off and mortgages off and Disney trips and tours and it’s really quite interesting. They have they have family in mind and it’s a family friendly site. So non violent I say that non violent gimlets gaming and and yeah, so I’m it’s exciting what they have to to offer I can’t wait and then I can hopefully share more.

Rob McNealy
Well, I am certainly looking forward to that. So you’ve been traveling around Canada and the United States and going to conferences and you know, what would you say that the differences are Are there any differences between the the perspective of crypto and the communities down here in the United States versus up in Canada?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Differences um, how can I say I mean, I’ve done more because I’ve been to Bitcoin Ben meetups and so where they’re different is Ben does draw a crowd. He does draw quite a few people. So Ottawa, we are a government city, a little more conservative of a city, I would say. Say the interest is not that far different. It’s not that you know that any are more knowledgeable or less knowledgeable or anything like that. I have had meetups where I’ve had 20 to 30 people. I’ve had meetups where I’ve had three people. So I don’t know anybody out there who’s had a similar experience. I’ve heard many things. And I’m sure there has been. And being the bearish market, of course, I would experience having a low number. Lately, I’ve had up to 1012 people the last few meetups. So that’s been very encouraging and really, really great. But I usually had a really good response after a lot of people end up coming up and shaking my hand and thank you, me. So you know, they’re hearing something new, they’re hearing something that might spark an interest inside of them or just give them some hope or light or something. And I see that that’s the kind of feedback that I get back from usually at the end of a meetup. And a lot of times we are sharing there’s other people who are also very savvy in the inner room and we share Share the space and share the information. I always tell everybody you know is not my meetup. It’s all of our so haven’t been to too many different meetups to really compare. But I would say from what I’ve experienced to really, maybe as far as numbers, and only because a lot of them I’ve been to there’s been so many other influencers. So bit of a crowd has been drawn in, but the enthusiasm is the same and the Curiosity is there. And yeah.

Rob McNealy
Do you think the interest is more pertaining to the investment piece of it? Or do you think that the interest seems to come more along the lines of the decentralization technology aspects?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
I’ve had a lot of both. So you do have a lot of people who are interested in I’ve had the people who are interested in making a quick buck who learned one to trade for instance, we even had people coming in to teach trading for those who were interested and I wanted to learn it just so I understood how it worked and and what people were saying and and determine knology but definitely a lot of people who want to invest who are careful with their money or who went, who were in situations where they needed to. And because there is this community is high tech, a lot of high tech individuals, so who were interested in the blockchain technology itself and a few different people who have had startups or Icos at the time back when Icos were a thing, they would do presentations by meetup to introduce the with their you know, their Ico and their new their new platforms. So quite a mix and a little bit of everything.

Rob McNealy
So as far as the technology goes, You seem to have a good you know, handle on the the tech scene least up in Canada. How many startups you see going on up there? Do you think there’s a really strong you know, tech hub up there as well or do you think that’s more focused down here in the United States or In other parts of the world

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
I think we have a pretty strong Tech Community up here in Ontario itself, not just Ottawa, Toronto is very strong as well. And there is a lot of innovation that goes on up here. Sometimes it surprises me even more than I realize. You know, I I’ve grown up in the Canada area where our high tech hub is and seen a lot over the years. And I would say, I mean, just recently, somebody told me you know, Apple has an office here in Canada, but nobody knows this. So it’s things like that, that I’ll hear of and a lot of creations like smart boards, you know, they’re created. The gentleman’s is living right here in Canada and created the SMART Board and I mean, there’s so many different inventions that have come out of the area, or you know, from Ontario itself. And with with as far as with blockchain or startups, there are a fair number just just gauging it by my own meetup and that I’ve had already a number of them that has come through and seeing them tells me something, you know, because not everyone has reached or found my meetup. And there’s including Montreal is another big city where there’s an active community as well. So I would imagine if I saw that, you know, a handful come through my meetup. And there would have to be quite a few more but to give you an exact number, I really don’t know.

Rob McNealy
So when you’re having people come to your meetups, a new people, what do you think, in general that the crypto community could do better to help introduce people to the technology into the space?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
What could the crypto community do better as in the crypto community here in Ottawa,

Rob McNealy
Or anywhere in general, like? It seems that there’s a lot of polarized people and opinions out there, but it seems like we don’t do a very good job of bringing new people into the space and I was wondering what do you think we can do to improve that?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Hmm? What can we do?

Rob McNealy
See, no prefab questions here.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
I like it. It’s good because we have to think and you’re making me think. I think it’s important to have education. I mean, this is why I do the meetup. So education is really key at this point. We are so early in it and there is so much to learn being that we are in it so early. So that education factor is what I looked for and what I needed to further into the space and understand it better and just to even invest. So I think if we can reach out to our communities into our meetups or whatever there is going on, definitely go there if you have something you can share. Even if you’re on social media or Facebook or with your friends talk about it talks about your family with your friends, and spread the word usually things are spread by word of mouth. I mean, this is a very valuable way that we grow, you know, whether it be a business or or teaching something. So definitely, I would say education. And if you want to even start a meetup like I did, you don’t have to be the expert. You know, it’s not net. It’s a community effort. And you’d be surprised at the kind of people that would show up and support so.

Rob McNealy
Also, as someone who also does run meetups. Yeah, you’d be very surprised at the kind of weirdos that come to meetups too.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Yeah, it can happen.

Rob McNealy
So, I always like to ask kind of questions about people. Do you have an opinion on what Bitcoin will or won’t do around May 20? Which is the havening that everybody keeps talking about? Do you think it’s gonna go crazy or do you think it’s just gonna be a big fizzle?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
I don’t know. I have no idea. I have no idea but honestly, it’ll probably go a little crazy. And we Whether or not it stays crazy, that’s to be determined, and I’m not going to be the one to predict that. But I would think it would get a little crazy, maybe even just even before it too, so that would be a probably a likely prediction.

Rob McNealy
All right, little bit of crazy, but we don’t know how long it’s crazy. Right. I think that’s a fair. I think that’s a fair assessment. I think that I because, you know, like, ask people that because I have my I have very strong opinions about lots of crypto stuff, right? And I’m kind of a crypto heretic. So I always look at it is, you know, I think because there’s so much FOMO around that, that something’s going to happen just because people think there’s going to be something happening about it. But I don’t know if there’s anything that’s really going to be come out of it just from fundamentally change. I don’t know if it’s going to be something that can be lasting I think they’ll probably be a spike up and you know, running up in the run up, but um, the how long it’s gonna last, but still be wrong. I’m wrong all the time. As my wife, she’ll tell you, I’m wrong all the time. So

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Sure, we can higher highs and lower lows. I mean, who knows, yeah?

Rob McNealy
Very cool. So, I mean, uh, where can people find out more about you?

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Sure. So you can find me on Twitter at craft Fluence one. You can find me on LinkedIn, Amina Mottola, you can find me on YouTube. I do have a YouTube channel. You can check out some of my interviews with some of the CEOs of the projects out there. And that’s Amina em on YouTube and also Instagram, Amina Mottola, underscore and Facebook that’s another one too. So my name is everywhere. It’s not hard to find me and for anyone interested in Corona social media marketing, contact me please interested to hear about it. Anyone who’s interested in learning more about social media and marketing. So, yeah, perfect. Go see Corona games.com go check out the site.

Rob McNealy
Go see CoronaGames. com, check out the site and we’re going to have we’ll have all those links posted up on the website at Rob McNealy calm. I mean, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It’s been a fun chat.

Amina Motala – Cryptocurrency Influencer
Thank you very much. I appreciate being here.

Rob McNealy
You have a great day. Thanks for listening folks checks out on the web at RobMcNealy.com.

Episode Links

Audio Interview
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Interview Transcript

Michael Hiles – CEO of 10XTS Transcript

Michael Hiles - 10xts

Note: This transcript was automatically generated by artificial intelligence (AI) and therefore typos may be present.

Rob McNealy
Okay, I am excited today. So today I’m talking to Michael Hiles. He is the CEO of 10XTS, which is a company out of Ohio that is in the regulatory FinTech space. And he’s also a second amendment guy. So I’ve been real excited to want to get on the show here so we can talk about some things. So, Michael, how are you today? Hey, how are you?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Thanks for having me.

Rob McNealy
Oh, well, I appreciate it. You know, it’s funny when we were kind of connecting on this, I thought it was interesting that you and I have been connected on social media going back to 2011 at this point. So you and I are both old school social media guys way before crypto even existed. And I think that’s kind of cool.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yes, sir. I actually predate the internet. I ran like bulletin boards on dial up modems, some old old dude here. So

Rob McNealy
I wasn’t I didn’t I wasn’t fortunate enough because I didn’t have family that was very technologically savvy. So I didn’t really get into computers much in any way till I was probably in college. Back in the 90s. So yeah, I wasn’t fortunate enough to have exposure to computers at a young age. So I really wish I did at this point, because, you know, I ended up in this space and using it my whole life, but it’s kind of interesting. You know, I’m here now. So that’s all.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I was blessed. I got so lucky. My dad worked in sales for a software company in the 70s. So in 79, I started programming on mainframes. I was literally that kid. I was like eight years old.

Rob McNealy
You and Bill Gates,

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Mmm, yeah, but I don’t have Bill Gates his balance sheet. I made some bad decisions somewhere.

Rob McNealy
I think I think that’s the you didn’t pick the right parents, I think.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, I hear you. So, so.

Rob McNealy
Well, good. Well, good. Tell me about 10XTS. Yes. What do you What are you doing?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
So, 10XTS is a startup early stage tech company is kind of the product of my background. round my career progression, having been a tech guy my whole life and then seeing the emergence of the technology and from the nascent you know, hobbyist phase like all tech does into, like the enterprise usefulness, that hey, there’s something here I knew, you know, Bitcoin payments, those are all early stage use cases, you know, kind of the pioneer, but being an information architect and a data guy, I recognize the usefulness of being able to use the underlying technology for things like, you know, record keeping notary, you know, other functions that right now require intermediaries and third parties to, you know, give you an assertion that somebody is presenting a claim or a proof and you’ve got some way to validate that from a record standpoint. So my team back before 10 x Ts in the early 2000s we won a Smithsonian laureate award when they were still giving those out for being the first to connect a judicial management system, a case search system, like you go to your county clerk of courts. And we got an award for being the first to connect an old school legacy court clerk system to the web. So being able to go to a browser and do a search. And so I’ve worked with public record for a big chunk of my career and understand the nuances of the workflow of data getting onto the blockchain, which is probably as or more important than the data on the blockchain. So tenex ts really, you know, fast forward. Yeah, we recognize the opportunity to not necessarily be the blockchain, but to be the record keepers that connect real world documents and data to the blockchain for single source of truth efficacy of the data model. So little bit different approach them I’m a crypto guy in the sense that I love cryptocurrency and the emergence and evolution of technology, but we see ways to then, you know, build on top of that core underlying promise. How do we go in? And how do we bring capital efficiency in particular, because our underlying vision is economic inclusion, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. And I think if we can solve a few problems related to that across our population, we can start to break down some of these social barriers and some of these political barriers that has everybody literally ready to, you know, start throwing fast rocks at people from the tree tops, and that’s not going to be the solution.

Rob McNealy
Well, I agree with you. And I think it’s interesting out there, at least in the social media world, when you’re talking about crypto and blockchain kind of things, that people on the left, and I’m not a writer either, but the people on the left seem to be really adamantly opposed to anything that decentralizes yet they still complain that the political process is really corrupt. And so to me, it’s really confusing to me Ultimately why certain that certain kind of politically it’s it’s weird because it comes down to I think that ultimately certain individuals do want the control of government over certain things they absolutely want to control you. And when you say we want to cut government out of this to get get rid of political corruption and corporate corruption, they can’t understand the connection between the two. And they don’t understand the fact that technology can enslave or liberate depending on who’s running it and who, how its applied. And, you know, it’s interesting, I thought of all things that the people on the left would be the ones that would embrace this type of technology that is decentralization, enabling and what..

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I don’t understand it, I you know, I, so I’m in Ohio 8 district so I’m fortunate to have congressman Warren Davidson is my congressman. And so Warren has led some of the charge in DC with the finance Services Committee. And in fact, I’ve been to DC I’ve, you know, testified and participated in congressional roundtable from a policy standpoint on all of this. And, you know, David and I, we’ve talked back and forth about, you know, just the function of automating government, you know, the blockchain out of it, but just, you know, how do you automate things that are human powered processes today? In the past, I’ve had left elected officials, Democrats Tell me, because I actually talked to them, you know, like, I’m not like so polarizing. It’s like, gosh, I probably got as many democrat friends as a Republican friends, it’s like, but in terms of the discussion around the function of government, I’ve had elected officials tell me in the past that government as a social function employs a segment of the population that would deem to be otherwise functionally unemployable. I don’t know if that’s true. I mean, I get it, it’s like, well, if you’re going to give them things, at least make them productive in some capacity from a community standpoint. Now, I don’t know if other of my many government employee friends would agree with that. But I’m sure you know, they would be fairly incensed by it. Because I know on the other side of the equation, PhDs and really brilliant people that are also part of the government and work for the government or have government contracts. And so I don’t know what that dividing line is. Rob, I really don’t. It’s certainly interesting when it comes really down to transparency. I think that’s the big threshold of well, we can get away with things the way it works. Now. We won’t necessarily be able to do that if we’re subject to some other reporting and transparency regime.

Rob McNealy
I think people are very libertarian, when it comes to themselves, and very statist when it comes to other people.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Do as I say, not as I do.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I kind of think that’s how people are. I think they’re wired that way. I think that they want the maximum amount of freedom for themselves, but they certainly want to create rules for other people. Maybe as a form of self defense. Maybe that’s why that is that way.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Emotional intelligence? I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know what it is safety in numbers? Fight or flight?

Rob McNealy
I don’t know cuz I, I don’t want to control other people. So honestly, I know, I don’t want the response of I don’t want the responsibility to control other people. But there’s a lot of people that do think not only that they should do that, but they’re entitled to tell other people what to do. My mother is a great example of that. She cared. Yeah, my mom would totally be a Karen totally. You know, it’s all about the rules and you know.

My parents. It’s funny because my parents, I grew up in the Detroit area, and we were, my dad was a conservative, like they were conservative. So they were huge rule followers. That was their mindset. But they also didn’t understand that a lot of the rules were designed, they didn’t see how rules screwed them. And I remember this one time, and it was one of the first times I kind of had an understanding of that maybe things aren’t always what I thought they were like when I was 10. And I remember maybe nine, and my neighbor’s dad, across the street, ran a construction company and my dad needed a load of dirt. He had a dump truck kind of thing in the neighborhood. And my dad, and I was really good friends with the sun. And my dad says, one day, you know, your buddy’s dad’s a tax cheat. And I’m like, What are you talking about? He’s like, well, he made me pay him in cash. He didn’t want me to give him a check. So he doesn’t want to pay taxes on that. I’m like, that sounds like a good deal. I was like, and I’m like, why would you want to be deck? And it was?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
It’s call “none ya.” None ya business.

Rob McNealy
But I left it. I mean, I’m 48 this year, you know, and I’d like that left an impact on me because I saw like, Well, why should he have to pay taxes on that? Like I was just a kid, right? But my dad who was like this, basically it was a teacher. He was a he was a rule follower. He was locked in there was an employee miserable in his job. And the neighbor was self employed, had his own business. And it was just interesting to me how I remember what I remember about this. My dad was incensed by it. Like he felt it was unfair, that this other guy didn’t want to pay whatever the taxes were, or whatever, you know, and it’s interesting because I remember that to this day, and I left an impact. But I also see you know, my dad, if you ever read the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, my dad was the poor daughter had that mindset. It was very, this this mentality that if someone else gets ahead, they’re getting screwed in some way. And but I look back now and even then, when I was growing up, I saw that my My parents made their own decisions that made their own lives miserable. And it’s funny because even as a kid, I remember going into therapy now, but I remember as a kid, you know?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
We’re Gen X guys, man. I mean, we’re getting to that point, right? We got to confront these things.

Rob McNealy
Dude, no, no crap. But I remember when I was a kid, like I was telling my parents when I was like, in my teens, because I was working, and I was a busboy of all things at one point, making like really good money in a high, you know, high class hotel and stuff. And I was making more money than my mom. Like literally. And I said, Mom, why are you doing this job that makes you miserable? I have security. I’m like, No, you don’t? Yes, I do know you know, you don’t have any security like a fire you tomorrow. You have no control over and I recognize that as a kid. And my and it was interesting how like it made us clash and and so when it comes back around and like, Why do certain people want to control the people and why they reject these kind of decentralized technologies. I always think back to my parents because they’re that quintessential Karen kind of person that wants to do that. And that’s like, Wow, you guys are brainwashed. That’s all I can think of. They’re just brainwashed.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, I mean, it’s a tough thing when you live your whole life with filters and predispositions and social norms. And, you know, it blows my mind though, because and I, you know, I don’t want to get off on the tangent from a boomer versus younger people thing. But you’ve got folks that are like, counterculture in like, the hippie generation, like, we want to change this, we want to construct a new, you know, way of doing things, which Alright, cool. You know, there were certainly problems that were carried over from before. Then now, like, what happened, guys, I mean, it’s so funny, because when I was a teenager, I saw Peter Paul and Marian concert and their very last tour. And so it was like 87 and I’m thinking, hey, it’s hippie stuff. Let’s dress up like hippies. Well, so I got tickets to this concert, not realizing it looks at Memorial Hall, which is very nice upscale, you know, venue in Cincinnati and You know, I go in there and it’s like literally all these yuppies who were, you know, in their 30s at the time, but they’ve got like their sweaters wrapped around their polo shirts. And if you remember when they drink sweaters down their backs kind of a thing and, and here we are me, my girlfriend dress like hippies and it’s like, a something happened. Come on guys. Anyway, sorry. I didn’t mean to digress off into it people.

Rob McNealy
Well, you know, what happened to the hippies is that they were born at a time where the United States was the only manufacturing power left on the planet. And anybody can throw rock and make a ton of money. So and and you know what, at that point, you know, people like well, I really liked the Mad Men house and I really liked the nice cars and having two cars and, and I think that’s what happened ultimately, is that, you know, life was life was pretty good. Let’s just put in perspective, life was pretty good. And they grew up in a time where you didn’t have to even go to college to make good money, and you didn’t even have to Have a college loan and you could still, you know, because there wasn’t student loans like there are now that you could afford to pay for college and not come out as come out of college with no debt and work your way through. They can’t do that anymore. And, and so I think that, you know, they were launched just from the facet of when they were born, they were able to grow up in their young as young adults in a time when the United States very prosperous and, and I definitely think that skewed their vision and I think that’s also the opposite of what’s I think it’s the same opposite effect happening now millennials and Gen Xers. I mean, I was caught in student loan prep, too, because I was given bad advice from boomers. You know, just invest in any major regardless, you’ll it’ll pay off and, you know, you’ll make 10 times the amount of money that you invest in, like, that’s worship. But you know, you learn, live and learn, but I think that definitely is, you know, made some impacts in society on how we’re viewing these kind of things.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah. Then I did the inevitable. This is what I look at as an entrepreneur. I’m looking down the road You know, from CEO and my crystal ball lens of having several decades of technology experience and multiple, you know, product life cycles and technology cycles and saying, okay, that regardless of what happens, my entire career was built on how do I make things more efficient? How do I create tools? And how do I, you know, deconstruct the silos that drove power bases inside of corporate organizations, for example, you know, when you look at the baby boomer way of management and operation, you bring up Mad Men, all human powered political process. I call that fixed overhead. And so if you want to be relevant in the current market place, as technology people, and I’ve always viewed technology shifts as the opportunity to do a couple of different things first, you can certainly go in and be the Absolute disrupter be Jeff Bezos right? I mean, be the guy. Of course it fully the magnitude of the disruption didn’t fully materialize for a couple decades for Amazon. But you know, His goal was to just go and slaughter it. Hence the saying your margin is my opportunity. The other side of the coin as well, there’s already entrenched channel partners and people that are in these industries. Will they pay you to catch the wave and become more efficient, more competitive, without you having to become that business? I don’t have to be Whole Foods and be in the grocery business to go and help say Kroger be more efficient. They’re already in the grocery business. I don’t start a new grocery. And so back to the crypto space is one of the things that we’ve looked at. From a blockchain standpoint. Well, you know, we’re good. We’re experts in the technology, software and data. How do we then identify the opportunities to go to existing markets, whereas a lot of people are saying, Oh, no, we want to be Come on broker dealer, we want to become an exchange. I’m like, heck with that, you know, that comes with a lot of regulatory overhead responsibility, compliance things that, you know, that’s not what we do. Right? We could, but I would rather be the guy that says, I’m the expert at the tool. I know your problem, probably better than you know, your problem at the technology level. So you go out there and you’d be the bank, you go out there, you be the broker dealer, but recognize that your model is going to have to shift in order to stay competitive in the marketplace. Because if you don’t buy my stuff, your competitors going to, and it’s just a function of knocking on doors, and it’s a numbers game for me and for my company, to go out and find the use cases that are going to onboard and say, Yep, I get it. I get what you’re trying to do. This is a cost cutting measure opens up new markets.

Rob McNealy
Well, I definitely think that blockchain technology has a lot of interesting uses in business. And I definitely think that you can gain some really interesting efficiencies with blockchain technology that maybe smaller to mid tier companies could use them to take some of that market share away from the big entrenched holders. I’m sorry, you know, companies that are in that space, because the bigger the company, the less risk adverse they are, you know, you know, you know, GM, and you see how it is right now, right, GM and all these companies now are deciding they’re going to go into electric vehicles, like a decade after Elon Musk decided to start, you know, do the innovation and now they’re like, okay, there’s a market. We’re going to go in there and try to crush it now. But I think that this, these technologies, whether it’s just for payments with blockchain stuff, I think there’s amazing opportunity now that business people are starting to look at it. I think what was happening before is that most of these crypto projects were led not even by entrepreneurs, but just straight developers that maybe never even ran like their own business before. But they had an interesting idea of how technology could evolve. They created it but they didn’t really understand how to actually get people to use it. Get it out there absolutely adoption standpoint?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yep, absolutely. I mean, you look at the fact that the iPhone was released a year before the white which is basically around the same time as Bitcoin white paper came out and look at the contrast and adoption between, you know, the first smartphone versus this really nascent weird hobbyist technology that involves all these layers tantamount to you know, having to fire up your modem and change your dialing string and get your command line interpreter to telnet and you know, some other computer network. And then you look at the that transition that inflection point of well, when AOL started putting out CD ROM installers with an awesome user interface in every shrink wrap, plastic bag, partnership deal. You know, they could Steve Case could possibly go and sign up at the time right now, and pushing out millions and millions and millions of this really awesome user experience. So that’s where I think that a lot of the disconnect is at for really any technology but in you know, particularly adoption of blockchain cryptocurrency technologies, nobody wants to see how the sausage is made, just bring me a plate of bratwurst right, I’m ready to eat it. And I think that’s where the technologists get so enamored with their own, you know, source code and their GitHub repos that, you know, they forget that the average person can’t even change the windows settings of their, you know, basic visual device on their laptop, right? We’re not that far along, guys, after all these years.

Rob McNealy
Well, well, I can tell a lot because you know, and I love developers, don’t get me wrong. I’m not anti developer. They just have a very different set of skills and a different view.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Oh, of course. Yeah. I lead a bad merry band of developers, you know, I mean, I am a developer. So it’s really interesting. You know, I like in work in development, working with developers as really like managing a rock band. Right. So it really is. It’s the parallels are so you know, you got it somewhere between being your psychologist and, you know, the communicator, the spouse, dad when it’s necessary. It’s this weird dynamic to get true r&d developers, people that know how to create something out of nothing, because it’s all function of motivation. Right is how do I get Stephen King to go into his dungeon and come out with the next best seller? Right? And that’s, that’s really how do you guide that as a CEO of a tech company as it gets interesting.

Rob McNealy
But to use your analogy, right, there is no, no person in their right mind would let the band determine the marketing and promotion strategy for their album either.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
No, no, no, they have no idea. They’re out there on the street corner, just, you know, doing the, you know, minstrel for free with the hat, you know?

Rob McNealy
Busking in busking in the subway. Right?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Exactly.

Rob McNealy
And so that and that’s part of the problem with a lot of developers and engineers. This is just an engineering mindset. I’ve worked in a lot of engineering companies, big companies, and this is pretty consistent is that the build that they will come mindset? Is what it comes down to. And unfortunately build it, they will come doesn’t usually work. That’s right. It’s a myth. And, and it doesn’t matter if you have the best technology. Doesn’t it med the best marketing technologies are the ones that win. And what that means is, even if you have the best technology, if you don’t have a way in a strategy to put that solution in the hands of the people that it solves their problem, it doesn’t matter. It’s not going to get adopted. And and it’s funny because I’ll have this discussion with engineers and a lot of them. They think they’re smarter than everybody else. And that’s okay, because they need to be smart. But if I said, an engineer has to have a certain skill set and intelligence level, and it’s a trained career path, that they’re professional, they would all agree with that. But then I said, you know salespeople and marketers are also a skill set that go through training and experience. Absolutely. And it’s like no, no, that doesn’t matter. Anybody can market I’m like, that’s horseshit. That’s absolutely nonsense.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
The disconnect that I’ve identified is this magical little thing called empathy. Right? It’s like engineers a very rational construct logic, a plus b equals C. And as we know, human beings are also very emotional. And we all share 11 of the same emotions. And you’ve got the, you know, want to be Spock engineers over here. Well, that just doesn’t make sense. So like, Well, of course, it doesn’t make sense because people don’t make decisions particularly make decisions to buy things based on making sense. No, they’re going to absolutely make an emotional decision. And then when the logic comes into play, it is rationalizing their emotional decision and supporting their confirmation bias that we all have to a massive degree. The older I get, the more I realized that, you know, Hey, you know what I thought about the world. I don’t I’m not the smartest guy in the room. In fact, as a CEO, that’s my mantra is I want to be the dumbest guy. And I want to surround myself by awesome people that are hell smarter than I am. Right? And then how do you be the manager of the band and get them to work together and get over their petty bullshit, because when teams on stage and they’re jamming it out, and you got 70,000 people in the stadium audience cheering, and here’s my money, take my money. That’s when you know that things are actually working out. That’s, that’s my metric.

Rob McNealy
Yeah, I agree. And I can always tell when a developer is in over their head when it comes to understanding how to promote their solution or their project is one. I’ll use the Linux analogy, and they’ll say, look, Linux is great. It’s an amazing software. It’s open source. It’s kind of decentralized in a lot of ways, but Linux never made Any market share never got market share on desktop. And Linux servers, which are amazing, are still are very niche because the only people that care about them are developers. So, so so Linux is never like I’ve had developers literally Michael, tell me that Linux is mass adopted. And I’m like out of your minds, you’re absolutely out of your mind.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I mean, you can argue that because it’s embedded in the bowels of the apple lap, you know, the Apple device that, you know, the core OS is a Linux variant. So they’re technically not wrong, but they’re not wrong for all the wrong reasons.

Rob McNealy
Well, you know, I think the I think the block chains that win are going to be the same way no one the average person on the street and by the way, I spend my time as an entrepreneur talking to potential customers, before I ever decide to build a business or code a project now, and and to me, you should have a customer first and then build the solution for that individual customer. That’s how you build a business at least my 20 years of being out entrepreneur, that’s what I’ve come up with at least. And the customers in the world right now do not care about the centralization. And so if your big thing in development is decentralization, most people don’t give a shit about it. People want their problem solved. And if decentralization solves that problem, they still don’t care how the problem is solved. They just want it solved. And and I think that’s where a lot of people miss out. And they don’t understand that. I think a lot of developing lead crypto product teams are out there. And they’re trying to basically want to educate you on why you should be mad and only like decentralization. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense because I don’t care. It’s like, you’re not going to get anywhere with that kind of methodology of marketing come up with a solution that makes sense for them and just make it work in the background.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, I mean, the problem I found that the furthest throughout it, particularly as an entrepreneur, and this is where you cross over into the VC world where you know, who’s crystal ball and what’s the what’s the time horizon of the crystal ball that you’re looking at in terms of market emergence and development, right? You have to sort of be at that point, which means and what’s the old saying that if Henry Ford would have been completely customer lead, that they would ask him for a faster horse or something to that particular effect. And I think that there’s, there’s an interesting balance in technology cycles. As I’ve studied in my whole career right now, I’ve been front and center watching the emergence of, you know, every technology literally since the mainframe, and seeing how it goes from the hobbyist. And, you know, really the guy that wrote the book on its Geoffrey Moore, I don’t know if you ever read Crossing the Chasm, Geoffrey Moore, but I don’t know. I know. I haven’t read it. It’s an amazing read. And if you’re into technology into technology markets and understanding technology businesses, it really is the Zay of the bell curve of the adoption cycle for the stuff. And where do you hit that inflection point, timing the money timing the product, being able to To hit the ground running, that’s our big gamble as entrepreneurs is like, I know all my ideas are good, right? I know that there’s market. It’s a function of living and surviving until you hit that inflection point, right? The cash burn is the cash burn. So, can you stay ahead of the cash burn? Don’t run out of money, right? And then if you’re right there, when the lightning is ready to strike, bam, you know, there comes the bolt. And you know, that’s where the it really is a lightning strike function for a unicorn billion dollar tech company.

Rob McNealy
Well, I think that’s where the entrepreneurs come in. And I and I really think that entrepreneurs are able to see all the pieces like that and but still be able to jump down into the details and the nitty gritty stuff. And I think timing is a hugely important and that’s one factor. We don’t control necessarily when something is ready. But to understand that timing and being able to mitigate the risk and say, Look, I you know, You’re Henry Ford example about trying to listen to, you know, customers and say they’ve come up with a better horse. Well, I think the reality is he’s not right or not wrong there. And I think this is why is that a good entrepreneur can see, okay, I see this new technology, but how to apply that technology to solving a problem. And then figuring out, again, goes back to market segmentation, and then strategy for you know, putting that solution in front of those people. You know, Steve Jobs was amazing at this, like he understood that there was this friction with music distribution, and technology could solve that. Right now, a lot of people went out sit there and complain, oh, a lot, I think in a modern example of music as people would like, I would like, you know, ice cream trucks to have music records going around streets. That would be maybe what people would say would be easier than thinking in terms of digitizing music and distributing music a different way. And I think you’re right. A good entrepreneur, though, will solve that and figure out that thing and tell people look, yeah, your idea might work. But I got a better solution for that problem. And that’s this way, this is the solution. And that’s why i think that i think crypto so far in a lot of ways has been held back by the fact that you haven’t you don’t really have enough entrepreneurs involved with these projects yet. And it’s changing. It’s changed a lot just in the last two years. But so much of it right now has been led by developers who are build it and they will come and I think that that’s changing and..

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Well the definitely don’t know securities laws because unfortunately fun funding and financing a project on a purely decentralized basis and how it was funded, it certainly run afoul of the regulatory regime and you know, that’s why we just filed a Delaware C Corp and sold equity. Like everybody else’s like guys see how it goes. We’ll get there.

Rob McNealy
Well, it wasn’t that complicated to sort out like when we launched right after the height of the bull run in 2018. Everybody told just do an Ico you can raise money. Money. And that’s why we looked at doing a token project is that we were interested ourselves personally, of doing a startup and we wanted to learn what the Ico process was about. That’s why we were looking at that. And then when we said, hey, let’s launch a project, and we were originally gonna do an Ico because I had an idea for another business. And I thought, wow, as an entrepreneur, the idea that you could raise a whole lot of money. You don’t have to go through VCs and you don’t give away equity as an entrepreneur like hell. Yeah, that’s amazing, right? But through our diligence process realized we realized pretty quick that that’s that’s got to be illegal. What I said, Where did I go? There’s no way we can do this. And we still had lawyers, I was coming and this is ridiculous. I’m not a lawyer, but I worked for a lot of lawyers and my day job. And I was talking to lawyers and like I tell utility took I go, where does the where does the SEC recognize the term utility token they don’t, that’s not even a term that’s just made up. And that’s why we launched Originally the way we did so we’re not a security but it’s interesting like pretty much every IC on the United States was in security. And you and I were talking a little bit about that online about, you know, the securities and the Icos and and where that is right now, what do you think’s going to happen with the Ico world? I mean, going forward, it’s amazing idea that you can raise money this way. But I also think there’s a lot of problems with that, which.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
There really is, and I’ve been fairly prolific about my opinions. And, you know, it’s created a bit of a barrier between me and the traditional anarcho capitalist crypto guys, because they’re all about, you know, all the way up to and including, you know, disrupting government. You know, they see government as an quote unquote, intermediary, I don’t know that I agree with them. And I don’t want to go there necessarily in this conversation, but, you know, in terms of needing new laws that define things that don’t need be find is problematic. We don’t need To change securities laws, the United States of America already recognizes literally a jelly doughnut as an investment contract based on the way I sell it to you, if I promise you a rate of return, that if you buy this jelly doughnut from me today for 100 bucks and a week from now you can sell it for 1000 get in on it now. FOMO, right, that that, in that instance, created a de facto security that’s a problem for people out there on YouTube with you know, their unregistered broker dealer status of pimping a particular quote unquote, opportunity. Right. And that’s where the SEC very adamant and I agree with it, because when you remove particularly in finance, a certain amount of regulation, the bad actors immediately move in. Yes, he doesn’t care, right. The only thing they care about is protecting the actual individual from fraud and inflammation disparity is what creates fraud. And you know, that that’s the reason we have this robust set of rules that is transformed America’s financial market into probably the most stable equity market in the world, consistently over time. So a certain amount of that regulatory framework is certainly necessary based on case precedent and enforcement, which is driven largely by complaint, not because, you know, sec commissioners are sitting around like, hey, how do we screw with the little guys today? Right? I mean, it’s literally, it’s almost exclusively complaint driven. So I don’t know that we need to change it. And then when you look at the other side of the equation when it comes to regulatory crowdfunding, for example, that’s not been adopted since the title three jobs act of 2012. Right. I don’t even think that regulatory crowdfunding was raised a billion dollars combined since it was enacted. So.

Rob McNealy
I think My take is and having not been originally a securities guy, but when we launched two years ago, I took a deep dive and learned as much as I could about securities offerings and at the state level federal level. I took like a deep dive for six weeks and I felt very comfortable at that point of my own opinion that every Ico was illegal under US law at the time. And what I did, but I do think the the area of regulation that no one’s really talking about so much that I think actually is an impediment to adoption is the IRS treatment of cryptocurrencies as property. I think those regulations do not fit. Currently, I do believe that even if the IRS just decided to elect to treat cryptocurrency for instance, as a foreign currency I think would do a lot to speed up adoption. And I think because I think the the accounting, basically requirements that businesses and even individuals have to do What from the crypto side of things to actually use it as a buying, you know, something that’s being used for buying and selling goods and services? I believe the IRS is going to be the biggest part of it not the SEC rules.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, I mean, right now we pay taxes if we make a profit because we bought, you know, a Beanie Baby at a garage sale and sold it on, you know, eBay for you know, profit margin. Right. Right. We’re supposed to report that as income. It gets really complicated when you get into high volume transactional stuff. And that’s that’s really what the technology enables that the current intermediary status of the market is not prepared to handle right when we change hands for equity ownership. I have a token, for example, that represents shares of stock. There’s no such thing as a bear stock certificate, right? I mean, we, we register our names and our contact information, the DTC handles, the transferor etc. It’s got to be done through a transfer agent. There’s, you know, a very well defined process and be in that’s just simply the validation part of the market right where that trust and those trust layers have had to be abstracted out and human powered process. Once again, this guy says that the sky is a true and valid owner of the stock and he’s truly in validly, you know, transferring it selling it to this other person will write it down and keep the third party record and how the blockchain can do that, right. I mean, but the law is not there yet to support that layer of automation, and it requires somebody to hold a license for whatever reason. It’s like I laugh about custody, you know, everybody argues about custody and custody of digital assets of like, you know, wonderful lights went out. There would be no custody, right? The blockchain has the custody so you banks can go away now, do you need a license to have this particular type of an account to hold something on behalf of somebody else? Because it’s the blend of the existing, you know, laws. I don’t know. I’m not a lawyer. I get invited to lawyer conferences, but you know, it’s like this..

Rob McNealy
This, but I think that’s an interesting thing about the custody piece, right? Everybody’s like, Oh, you should just not your keys, not your crypto and the unforgiving nature, I think of crypto is also problem. And as I said, in our conference last, this last March, we hit we do an annual off chain conference, which is kind of a mix of crypto and prepping and preparedness and self defense and things like that. We’re doing the next one in February. And we talked, we talked a lot about this, because what you know, and I think it’s because the typical anarchist is broke, they don’t understand that, you know, if you take away banks, and third party, or third, you know, trusted parties that are holding your 401k funds and things like that. Now, what you’re, what you’re suggesting is people now have the equivalent of their life savings on a little device in their house. And now before you might have had a bank, supporting that with like armed guards and vaults and, you know, backup generators and all that and and now you’re saying the average person is in charge of all that stuff now to at their house. And man, that’s that’s just that’s a reach for me. I think that you know if crypto is going to be adopted, there absolutely needs to be, you know, third party custodians available, because I don’t think the average person can handle it and maybe I’m maybe I’m a jerk. But I just can’t imagine like, for instance, my Karen type mother, being able to handle like her social security, you know, on a blockchain and crypto and and I just don’t think that’s I don’t think it’s realistic to have that expectation that the average person can manage that at this point without like a big cultural and educational shift.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Now, I mean, it gets back to self sovereign identity, which you get a lot of people are working on that particular problem, that particular aspect of connecting to blockchain, right. How do I, how do I assert that the person who’s touching this device that’s conducting this transaction that’s going to be recorded on the blockchain? Because that’s really what I care about is how data gets To the blockchain, not what’s on the blockchain, right? So how do we assert and validate that this particular individual is actually who they say that they are? And so there’s a lot of that self sovereign trust, and how do we create those applications and identity verification? The problem that I see though, is that at scale, it gets pretty draconian pretty quick, because the real ultimate solution is, you know, binding your genome to hash value on a network something that scares the shit out of me.

Rob McNealy
Right? What could possibly could go wrong with that?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I saw the movie Gatica. I mean, I am I am clearly about bioethics. And, you know, this is where I, I think that we have to assert that’s true self sovereign part of the status. I don’t know what that means. I don’t know what that means in the future. I’m as equally excited for my kids as I am frightened for my kids. And that’s why I’m out for that’s why I’m trying to do what I do. At least with what I know how to With and, and, you know, hopefully we can push back against, you know, the the Karen’s of the world who want to enslave and entrap and, you know, and subjugate and and I don’t I’m not here to fight and argue over policy ever it’s just a function of, you know, can we create technology solutions to stupid human problems because we’re really only like a couple of levels above chimpanzees don’t crap at each other, you know, the trees.

Rob McNealy
I go like this, you know, I don’t you see this a lot in the crypto world and I think there’s a lot of I think there’s a lot of immaturity out there is that when people are like they cheerlead like China getting involved in embracing blockchain, I’m like, dude, you really don’t understand that a government like that embracing blockchain is going to be absolutely leverage to enslave those people. No, it’s not going to be it’s not going to be used to liberate the I mean, all right, that we got the government of Saudi Arabia, right. They’re still chopping people’s heads off publicly, right. I mean, I mean, Still, like Bronze Age kind of shit, and or like Dark Ages kind of stuff. And now you’re going to give them these tools that can, you know, I think could enslave.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Yeah, and the dichotomy with this is that I firmly believe the next global reserve currency will be a programmable digital currency format. Right? You’re basically saying a government accepts the risk of however long of transporting value from point A to point B, using this particular, you know, normalizing thing, you know, whether that’s conch shells, whether that’s the United States dollar or whether that’s, you know, the digital renminbi and, and it’s going to it’s going to happen and it needs to happen because, you know, the, the idea that I can actually carry money in my QuickBooks account, for example, as my actual Treasury or my wallet, that I can just simply pay vendors by transmitting not dollars, but US dollar currency. It’s through a government settlement system. Right. And we know that the US, you know, the Federal Trade. So the Fed is actually working on this, but they claim that their platform is not going to be ready until 2025. So, and I forget the name of the system. I wrote about it in my newsletter a few weeks ago, but they’ve been working on it. But now we got China piloting the digital Yuan, in a couple of provinces. They’re ahead of us, right, from a nation state standpoint. We’re so far behind in the United States. It’s frightening based on where our reserve status of currency is going to go back to France, right. There’s they’re studying it now.

Rob McNealy
Well, I do believe that at some point, the US dollar will no longer be the reserve currency and what that how that plays out for the average American I don’t think it’s going to be positive, to be honest. But, I mean, that brings us into the next phase. Right? We I think you and I both agree that technology is useful, but it can be used for good or bad. I think it’s just it’s just like any tool, right? But just like guns, right guns can be used for events, or they can be used to commit crimes. That doesn’t mean that the tool is bad. It just means that it’s better to have more guns in the hands of good people than in the bad. And I think that’s where we kind of also says, you know, you and I are kind of overlap there politically. So recently, you’ve been leading a little campaign in Ohio, tell me about that.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Well, it’s really an accident. So I’ve got political campaign management experience. I’m a marketing guy, you know, how to, you know, organize things. And so it’s carried me in it a lot of interesting places throughout my career. And so I saw what was going on in particular Virginia, but then Kentucky and Pennsylvania and some other states. Around the, you know, this idea of red flag laws and, you know the the ability for the government to suspend your rights without due process and come in and confiscate anything that you own out of your home, particularly one that has been enumerated in the Constitution, United States of America and defended multiple times through multiple Supreme Court cases. And here, we’ve got people, you know, saying, nope, we’re going to come in and we’re going to take away your gun. And I guess that was really a wake up point for me to see how they’re scrambling in Virginia, for example, to solve the problem, and recognizing that when the argument or the claim that the conservatives don’t know how to organize, right, it’s true to a certain degree, right. And if you believe that all Government is local. And you look at the approach that Virginia is taking, you’ve got the states that are these counties in the state of Virginia that said, okay, based on our government structure, we have a way to push back at a local level, we can have our county pass a resolution that essentially D funds enforcement activities of infringing enforcement is what it’s called. That’s directed by the state. Now, I’m not a constitutional scholar by any stretch of the imagination. So I can’t get into the, you know, is this largely just a symbolic thing? You know, there are other things to take into consideration, consideration, I don’t know, but I know that when I go down to my polling precinct to vote on everything, it starts with local, right. I mean, I have local bond issues. I have local candidates that are being elected to county offices and we don’t have the kinds of networks and communication frameworks, particularly in the state of Ohio, to rapidly organize and coordinate across the state teams that are essentially decentralized, right? You’re talking about a decentralization. But how do you get teams of committed volunteers citizens to work in their county? We have 88 counties in Ohio. And how do we get them to coordinate and work together to also pass model resolutions around this particular second amendment issue of red flag laws? Not just for these things, but then also in the future when somebody comes along and says, oh, we’re going to take this other right. How do we organize and structure and construct our our response in particular, and it goes back if you do a little homework in the war for independence, how the colonial You know, the colonials, the in the individual colonies in the cities and the towns and the villages operated for nearly a decade leading up to the actual war, was they created a de facto shadow government coalition of people and they call it a, they call it a community, or I’m sorry, a committee of safety. So there was a committee, there were several iterations of committees, and it was just regular people, regular prominent citizens in the community, that operated in a fashion to be communicators, to network with each other, and then ultimately to take action at the local level when necessary. But then how do I coordinate around with the other folks? Right? And so it’s the same communication distribution model, right? It’s how do you decentralize a organizational structure and target a particular issue in the Case passing red flag model ordinance line or a model resolution language at the county level, and then leaving the framework and in place, and particularly the state of Ohio, we are a state that enjoys the opportunity to put a signature campaign initiative onto a statewide ballot to even modify our constitution as a state, but that requires all the draconian regulations that they put in front of us, you know, we have to gather so many signatures within a certain amount of time and, and have so many counties represented, etc, etc. So, so I started this little group on Sunday, literally five days ago, just a sort of, you know, trial balloon and I created a Facebook group, it’s private, it’s hidden. You have to know somebody so there’s a velvet rope. We don’t take all comers. You have to literally be invited, invited in, and it’s still this phenomenal chaos but we went from zero to like to Well, thousand members of this group in five days, just people blowing this thing up because it really is a hot issue. It’s a big thing.

Rob McNealy
And I think that’s something you definitely need to work on because that’s that’s amazing that people are that concerned. And here in Utah, we are seeing something very similar happening to getting a lot of the gun rights groups are getting out ahead of some of the RPO stuff that’s coming out of our own state legislature. And you would think a state like Utah, which is, you know, definitely conservative in nature. That gun control bills wouldn’t be something that you would come up but I think they’re later I was told that there’s going to be multiple gun control related bills coming on and state legislature at least coming out of committee that, you know, we’re going to have to face here. And I think that’s what’s going to happen. I mean, in this country, we definitely have multiple cultures in this country from the coast. in the Midwest and the mountain states, where literally, people are very anti gun have never seen a gun before, you know, they’ve never actually shot a gun or been around a gun. But they definitely want to tell the other states what they can and can’t do. And I think Unfortunately, that’s going to change because, you know, we are culturally very different. And I think in the future, and I don’t have a crystal ball, but I think in the future, if there’s a time of crisis where say, you know, maybe it’s an economic collapse, or the US dollar, you know, kind of tanks or whatever, I believe the United States will break up, because I think we’re too culturally different. Now. In many parts of the country, what do you think?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
I mean, I don’t want to see my nation balkanized. Because what that means is, is that the power centers and the resource centers are all going to be concentrated in urban areas. And and I don’t want it to turn into Judge Dredd, right with the mega trop Ulises. And then wasteland in between. If that’s what happens then obviously if we’re in the wasteland in between we are far more suited to take care of ourselves and restore a certain amount of functional self governance and you know community alignment at the localized level. My town has literally my county seat is my town. Now I’m wedged between a couple of bigger bigger metros, but I live north of Cincinnati and my town has 8000 people in a county of like 45,000 right on the border of Ohio and Indiana. And I think that we can probably figure out how to put some seeds in the ground and work together to you know, restore a certain amount of community. But we are at risk we’ve lost a lot of mercantile ability. At the local level, we’ve lost a lot of trade skills that are going to be necessary in order to maintain standard of living and we’ve lost a lot of access to, you know, other knowledge resources. And I don’t want it to be a choice where if you don’t want to live in a mega trop list that you relegated to some sort of feudal, agrarian sort of surf Lord the keep kind of a scenario and I don’t know I just let’s work together Let’s all work together right now to keep these kinds of things from happening. You know, I,

Rob McNealy
I, you know, I agree with you and it’s kind of weird I live it because I even though I have an MBA, last June, I graduated from welding school full year and a half program or two full time school at night for a year and a half just to be a hobby welder, because I wanted to learn an actual skill. And I think that going forward, you know, we’re going to have to go back and be willing to learn things that maybe we forgot, and to be more self sufficient. And I think that’s kind of the ethos of the whole decentralization mantra, but Michael, we’re running out of time here. Yeah, man can people where can people find out more about you?

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Well, um, so the company side is 10 x Ts one zero x ts.com. We’re pretty narrow. So it’s not very exciting. If you go there, we talked about, you know, like FinTech and reg tech, you know, enterprise stuff. And then of course, I’m on social at Michael Hiles on Twitter. Hit me up on LinkedIn on a professional basis. I’m around a pretty easy to find. I’ve enjoyed it. Great conversation, man. I love Love, love the discussion.

Rob McNealy
Absolutely. And you know what, I’m going to hold you to that because we’re going to have more of these in the future. But Michael, thank you so much con today.

Michael Hiles – 10XTS
Thanks, Rob. I appreciate it. See y’all

Rob McNealy
have a great day.

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